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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride

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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride

"...Christ has condescended to us--condescended to be present with us in our unteachableness and stupidity."


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/2 20:19Profile









 Re: Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride



ChrisJD quoted

Quote:
'... unteachableness and stupidity...'

Chris, I wasn't sure where you found this, but it is something I've mused on in the last year or so... how dense I seem to have been for so long! I went through years of imagining (not a good thing for a start) that I was the last person on earth to 'see' spiritual truth and everyone else was ahead of me. That in itself was a kind of inverted snobbery. I used to get that at work when I was a teen, because people would ask me what my father did, and I fell for it every time. I was say innocently 'he's a doctor' and immediately they dumped a load of assumptions on me about my own opinion of myself... including the assumption that I'd always been well-off (wealth-wise) and that I'd always been able to get what I wanted because my father (they assumed) could afford it.

Not quite sure why I shared that, but.... back to being dense. Then slowly, I began to 'see' that one of the things Satan always set out to do was to damage people's mental health. There was no way he was going to let children grow up unscathed by the adults in their immediate world, or by the world, for that matter. I realised that idolatry also makes people dense. Blindness is especially true of those who seek riches, or, who walk in darkness.

I feel that 'unteachableness' is a function of this denseness. It is not all pure stubborn wilful determination to be as indolent as possible. What is more confusing, perhaps, is that even when one [i]wants[/i] to learn, sometimes one finds it very difficult to make sense of the discipline under examination. It is as if the light of knowledge is blinding to the dimness of our sight.

'stupidity'. Is that a function of 'stupor'? What is a stupor anyway? It can be brought upon a person by beating their head beyond any necessity to wake them or punish them, as much as by the intoxication of chemicals. This beating can be spiritual also, and nothing to do with the person who has been thus attacked.

Brother, don't beat yourself up as well. The Lord comes to heal, reveal and to reset all those disconnections and misconnections. And also, to undo misinformation about many things.

'... united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the secret of the God and Father, and of the Christ, in whom are all the treasures of the wisdom and the knowledge hid, and this I say, that no one may beguile you in enticing words, (Col 2:2 - 4)

or, 'the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches'


Now, I really hope I don't sound condescending, because we all need to pray for each other to receive wisdom and revelation. No-one has true spiritual sight, until they are available to the Holy Spirit, to hear from Him and to have Him interpret our prayers to the Lord, who intercedes for us with God. It's a fluid situation and it's always improving. :-)

 2007/12/2 23:06
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dorcas,


"I wasn't sure where you found this"


Do you mean the qoute? It is from the first post in the thread.



During the service this morning, the pastor was expositing from Mark 8:14-21.


The Lord Jesus had just left the Pharisees, and then He warns the disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod.


And they thought it was because they had forgotten to take bread. Before this, He fed 5000. And 4000. And they thought it was because they, 12 men, had forgotten to take bread.





And He said unto them, [b][color=990033]How is it that ye do not understand? [/color][/b]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/2 23:33Profile









 Re: Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride



Dear Chris,


Yea. I meant the quote.

Quote:
And He said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Ah! Well, exactly. That's the kind of connection I wouldn't have made either. :-(


I am acutely aware that apart from the Holy Spirit, I don't understand [i]anything[/i].

It is wonderful to cut that old mind adrift through the cross and float it out into oblivion for ever.

 2007/12/3 15:40
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

From the first article...





"One under the influence of spiritual pride is more apt to instruct others than to ask questions. Such a person naturally puts on the airs of a master. The eminently humble Christian thinks he needs help from everybody, whereas the spiritually proud person thinks everybody needs his help. Christian humility, under a sense of others’ misery, entreats and beseeches, but spiritual pride commands and warns with authority."







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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 13:07Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Pride ~ Humility

From an earlier entry ...

[i]Humility and faith are more nearly allied in Scripture than many know. See it in the life of Christ. There are two cases in which He spoke of a great faith. Had not the centurion, at whose faith He marvelled, saying, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel!" spoken, "I am not worthy that Thou shouldst come under my roof"? And had not the mother to whom He spoke, "O woman,great is thy faith!" accepted the name of dog, and said, "Yea, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs'? It is the humility that brings a soul to be nothing before God, that also removes every hindrance to faith, and makes it only fear lest it should dishonor Him by not trusting Him wholly.

Brother, have we not here the cause of failure in the pursuit of holiness? Is it not this, though we knew it not, that made our consecration and our faith so superficial and so short-lived? We had no idea to what an extent pride and self were still secretly working within us, and how alone God by His incoming and His mighty power could cast them out. We understood not how nothing but the new and divine nature, taking entirely the place of the old self, could make us really humble. We knew not that absolute, unceasing, universal humility must be the rootdisposition of every prayer and every approach to God as well as of every dealing with man; and that we might as well attempt to see without eyes, or live without breath, as believe or draw nigh to God or dwell in His love, without an all-prevading humility and lowliness of heart.

Brother, have we not been making a mistake in taking so much trouble to believe, while all the time there was the old self in its pride seeking to possess itself of God's blessing and riches? No wonder we could not believe. Let us change our course. Let us seek first of all to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God: He will exalt us. The cross, and the death, and the grave, into which Jesus humbled Himself, were His path to the glory of God. And they are our path. Let our one desire and our fervent prayer be, to be humbled with Him and like Him; let us accept gladly whatever can humble us before God or men;-this alone is the path to the glory of God.

You perhaps feel inclined to ask a question. I have spoken of some who have blessed experiences, or are the means of bringing blessing to others, and yet are lacking in humility. You ask whether these do not prove that they have true, even strong faith, though they show too clearly that they still seek too much the honor that cometh from men. There is more than one answer can be given. But the principal answer in our present connection is this: They indeed have a measure of faith, in proportion to which, with the special gifts bestowed upon them, is the blessing they bring to others. But in that very blessing the work of their faith is hindered, through the lack of humility. The blessing is often superficial or transitory, just because they are not the nothing that opens the way for God to be all. A deeper humility would without doubt bring a deeper and fuller blessing. The Holy Spirit not only working in them as a Spirit of power, but dwelling in them in the fullness of His grace, and specially that of humility, would through them communicate Himself to these converts for a life of power and holiness and steadfastness now all too little seen.

"How can ye believe, which receive glory from one another?" Brother! nothing can cure you of the desire of receiving glory from men, or of the sensitiveness and pain and anger which come when it is not given, but giving yourself to seek only the glory that comes from God. Let the glory of the Allglorious God be everything to you. You will be freed from the glory of men and of self, and be content and glad to be nothing. Out of this nothingness you will grow strong in faith, giving glory to God, and you will find that the deeper you sink in humility before Him, the nearer He is to fulfill the every desire of your Faith.[/i] ~ Andrew Murray


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/6 9:36Profile









 Re:

Pride is the root of all sin.

But Pride Equals "Self" and "Self" Equals Pride.

Sin is "missing the mark" and the "mark" is the Image of Christ.

If we are not exactly living/thinking as Him, by His Spirit alone, than we have pride/self.


Pride Equals Self.

That's what I was taught and I still believe it.

 2008/3/6 15:20
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride

[b]Humility in the Life of Jesus[/b]

[i]"I am in the midst of you as he that serveth."—Luke 22:27[/i]

In the Gospel of John we have the inner life of our Lord laid open to us. Jesus speaks frequently of His relation to the Father, of the motives by which He is guided, of His consciousness of the power and spirit in which He acts. Though the word humble does not occur, we shall nowhere in Scripture see so clearly wherein His humility consisted. We have already said that this grace is in truth nothing but that simple consent of the creature to let God be all, in virtue of which it surrenders itself to His working alone. In Jesus we shall see how both as the Son of God in heaven, and as man upon earth, He took the place of entire subordination, and gave God the honor and glory which is due to Him. And what He taught so often was made true to Himself. "He that humbleth himself shall be exalted." As it is written, "He humbled Himself, therefore God highly exalted Him."

Listen to the words in which our Lord speaks of His relation to the Father, and see how unceasingly He uses the word not, and nothing, of Himself. The not I, in which Paul expresses his relation to Christ, is the very spirit of what Christ says of His relation to the Father.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself"(John 5:19).
"I can of My own self do nothing,. My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will" (John 5:30).
"I receive not glory from men" (John 5:41).
"I am come not to do Mine own will" (John 6:38).
"My teaching is not mine" (John 7:16).
"I am not come of Myself" (John 7:28).
"I do nothing of Myself" (John 8:28).
"I have not come of Myself, but He sent He sent Me" (John 8:42).
"I seek not Mine own glory" (John 8:50).
"The words that I say, I speak not from Myself'"(John 14:10).
"The word which ye hear is not mine" (John 14:24).

These words open to us the deepest roots of Christ's life and work. They tell us how it was that the Almighty God was able to work His mighty redemptive work through Him. They show what Christ counted the state of heart which became Him as the Son of the Father. They teach us what the essential nature and life is of that redemption which Christ accomplished and now communicates. It is this: He was nothing, that God might be all. He resigned Himself with His will and His powers entirely for the Father to work in Him. Of His own power, His own will, His own glory, of His whole mission with all His works and teaching,—of all this He said, It is not I; I am nothing; I have given Myself to the Father to work; I am nothing, the Father is all.

This life of entire self-abnegation, of absolute submission and dependence upon the Father's will, Christ found to be one of perfect peace and joy. He lost nothing by giving all to God. God honored His trust, and did all for Him, and then exalted Him to His own right hand in glory. And because Christ had thus humbled Himself before God, and God was ever before Him, He found it possible to humble Himself before men too, and to be the Servant of all. His humility was simply the surrender of Himself to God, to allow Him to do in Him what He pleased, whatever men around might say of Him, or do to Him.

It is in this state of mind, in this spirit and disposition, that the redemption of Christ has its virtue and efficacy. It is to bring us to this disposition that we are made partakers of Christ. This is the true self-denial to which our Saviour calls us, the acknowledgment that self has nothing good in it, except as an empty vessel which God must fill, and that its claim to be or do anything may not for a moment be allowed. It is in this, above and before everything, in which the conformity to Jesus consists, the being and doing nothing of ourselves, that God may be all.

Here we have the root and nature of true humility. It is because this is not understood or sought after, that our humility is so superficial and so feeble. We must learn of Jesus, how He is meek and lowly of heart. He teaches us where true humility takes its rise and finds its strength—in the knowledge that it is God who worketh all in all, that our place is to yield to Him in perfect resignation and dependence, in full consent to be and to do nothing of ourselves. This is the life Christ came to reveal and to impart—a life to God that came through death to sin and self. If we feel that this life is too high for us and beyond our reach, it must but the more urge us to seek it in Him; it is the indwelling Christ who will live in us this life, meek and lowly. If we long for this, let us, meantime, above everything, seek the holy secret of the knowledge of the nature of God,as He every moment works all in all; the secret, of which all nature and every creature, and above all, every child of God, is to be the witness,—that it is nothing but a vessel, a channel, through which the living God can manifest the riches of His wisdom, power, and goodness. The root of all virtue and grace, of all faith and acceptable worship, is that we know that we have nothing but what we receive, and bow in deepest humility to wait upon God for it.

It was because this humility was not only a temporary sentiment, wakened up and brought into exercise when He thought of God, but the very spirit of His whole life, that Jesus was just as humble in His intercourse with men as with God. He felt Himself the Servant of God for the men whom God made and loved; as a natural consequence, He counted Himself the Servant of men, that through Him God might do His work of love. He never for a moment thought of seeking His honor, or asserting His power to vindicate Himself. His whole spirit was that of a life yielded to God to work in. It is not until Christians study the humility of Jesus as the very essence of His redemption, as the very blessedness of the life of the Son of God, as the only true relation to the Father, and therefore as that which Jesus must give us if we are to have any part with Him, that the terrible lack of actual, heavenly. Manifest humility will become a burden and a sorrow, and our ordinary religion be set aside to secure this, the first and the chief of the marks of the Christ within us.

Brother, are you clothed with humility? Ask your daily life. Ask Jesus. Ask your friends. Ask the world. And begin to praise God that there is opened up to you in Jesus a heavenly humility of which you have hardly known, and through which a heavenly blessedness you possibly have never yet tasted can come in to you.

—Humility
[i]The Beauty of Holiness[/i]
by Andrew Murray


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/12 9:35Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: love of self

Brother Mike,




"This is the true self-denial to which our Saviour calls us, the acknowledgment that self has nothing good in it..."



Think this was timely for me.


Sometime this past week, maybe two days ago, I woke up with a word and phrase going through my mind. The phrase was nearly if not exactly this:



"this narcissism is what's killing the world".


Although I had heard the word "narcissism" used before, I did not recall, and do not think I ever have, known what it meant. I felt I should look it up.


The American Heritage Dictionary defines it this way:



nar·cis·sism (när“s¹-s¹z”…m) also nar·cism (-s¹z”…m) --n. 1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/3/13 18:47Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: nar·cis·sism

nar·cis·sism

Quote:
"this narcissism is what's killing the world".



Brother, I think it may well be killing the Church ... from the inside out. Timely word. Interesting word. Even the sound of the word has a tone to it, doesn't it?

There is something of a 'spirit' for lack of a better way of putting it, running rip-shod through this forum of late. To say that narcissism is killing the church is likely an overstatement being that the gates of hell will not prevail.

There are some very glaring omissions back of matters that need to be called what they in fact are; Sin.

"Haughty, peevish and proud". Narcissism. Being contentious. Strife. The whole and continuing additions to this searching thread itself.

[b]threap: vi.[/b] to argue much or contend

An old obsolete word. I am at a complete loss ... how, how is it that so glaring sins such as these are just passed over? Over and over again they are appealed to and time and again they are ... denied. Defended. Almost always a rebuttal and rarely a confession of guilt-worthiness. How often self-righteousness is used as a weapon upon anyone but ones own self.

narcissism ... conceit

[i]Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.[/i] Prov 26.


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/16 11:14Profile





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