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W_D_J_D
Member



Joined: 2006/1/13
Posts: 119


 Re:

Perhaps a better title to this thread could of been.....

"The NIV is NOT the word of God"......

Then i would agree......haha

The (NIV) stands for the following.....

Never. Issues. Victory

Newly. Invented. Version

Nothing. In. Version

 2006/6/2 2:15Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi W_D_J_D...

Actually, "NIV" stands for "New International Version."

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/2 2:20Profile
boomatt
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Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
And when you enter Heaven are you going to be justified by what the bible says, or by Christ? Will you argue with God using scripture, or will you stand firm on what Christ did on the cross?



We are justified because of what the scripture says. What kind of christ on the cross do you have without the scriptures?


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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/6/2 10:19Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 God's Word

Quote:
If you say "the bible is the Word of God" then you are saying the bible is God.



Dear Blake,

I think this may well sum up the problem right here. That is not what anyone is saying nor implying, it is a notion you are implying on others. That does again not take away from the bottom line argument you are attempting to convey, that you started out from at the outset.

Would say the majority here has not been lost to your point, but it is semantics and really unnecessary other than to the spiritual 'lawyer' if you will and maybe that is your point just as well.

Ultimately your argument is also with Christ as well as He Himself appealed constantly to [i]it is written[/i] if not directly, by inference, by parable, to the devil himself, to the Pharisee, to the Scribe, to us. What you are intimating here is dangerous because you are attempting to make a dividing line, a divorcing by way of being overly didactic, making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Quote:
They are not the words of God. They are the words of God passed through another person.



Which means that they are then ... ?

No need to bring forth all the scriptures again and I think there is much here that demands an answer as you have stated you will reply to. To turn this around a bit and look at it from the perspective of those who are decidedly against the manner you are using here... Look at it from this perspective, what doubt's might you be implanting in the minds of the new believer? Do we not already have much of a problem with version and translation issues casting all kinds of doubt upon the same?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


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Mike Balog

 2006/6/2 10:24Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re: God's Word

The Bible:

John (AMP)
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.(A)

(KJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Rev. 19 (AMP)
10Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship (to pay divine honors) to him, but he [restrained me] and said, Refrain! [You must not do that!] I am [only] another servant with you and your brethren who have [accepted and hold] the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God! For the substance (essence) of the truth revealed by Jesus is the spirit of all prophecy [the vital breath, the inspiration of all inspired preaching and interpretation of the divine will and purpose, including both mine and yours].

(KJV)
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.




The Word is GOD, the Holy Spirit is GOD, Christ is GOD, but we are commanded not to worship Word, Holy Spirit, or even Christ, but [b]worship GOD[/b] [u]through the Word[/u], [u]through the Holy Spirit[/u] and [u]through Christ[/u], the manifestations of GOD.

Even though the Bible is the Word of GOD and is also Christ, which is also GOD, therefore stating that the Word is GOD. You do not worship the Word, you do not worship Christ, you do not worship the Holy Spirit, but you [b]worship GOD.[/b]


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Scroggins

 2006/6/2 11:54Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear brother Sean Hobson,

Quote:
Christ IS the bible



Do you know who Abraham Lincoln is? I am sure you have read about him. You might even say that you know him. You probably have heard many things about him, and may have even read many books about him. But, do you really know Abraham Lincoln as a friend and lover? Have you ever met Abraham Lincoln? Have you ever spent time with him?

Jesus Christ is NOT the bible. There is in fact a living God who dwells in the Heavens apart from this book. The bible is a testimony of Jesus Christ. It is a collection of stories about Him. There is so much more to be had than just reading the bible.

The true and living God wants to have an active relationship with humans. If you say you know Jesus Christ because you have read about Him in the bible, or that Jesus Christ is the bible, then you really don't know Him at all. Jesus is alive here and now. He is a Spirit who wishes to dwell inside of you. Jesus is God. The bible tells some things about Him, but not everything. You can have a real relationship with interaction apart from the bible.

You don't need the bible to learn about Christ. There are many testimonies besides for the bible that proclaim Christ. I can share you my own testimony of how I met Christ in person, and was transformed by His grace. The bible did not play a role in this. I had read the bible my entire life and it did nothing for me. Christ, the real and living God, came to me and I was transformed. This is not just my story, but the story of many others.

There is a real living God in Heaven who wants to reveal His true person to you, and to everyone. He wants to have a real relationship. If you only know Jesus because of the bible, then I challenge you to seek Him out in life. Put down your bible and spend some time alone with God. Give your life over unto prayer and fasting, so that your relationship with God may be enriched.

May Christ in Heaven be yours,

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/6/7 8:30Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear BillPro,

Quote:
Actually it is the "Inspired" Word of God and I am running with that



2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;

Indeed the bible is the "inspired" Word of God. The literal translation is {God-breathed}. If you think of the metaphor here, God's breath came from His mouth and fell upon something else.

When God created Adam, He "breathed" life into Adam. Would that make Adam the "Word" of God?

The bible is inspired of God. This means that the Holy Spirit filled different men and women who then wrote in accord by the direction of God.

God filled another person with His Spirit inspiring that person. This means that the words we have are not directly from God. We did not hear the words come directly from the mouth of God. Rather, we are reading words that were inspired by God. They are not the words of God, but rather the inspired words of God. This means that these inpsired words are a testimony, and not the exact or actual word of God.

The importance of this is great. It means that the bible is not the exact Word of God. This means that if we read the bible, we may hear about God, but since it is not the Word of God, it means we really don't know God.

If we really want to know God, we have to meet Him. We can't just read the bible and know God. We may know about God by reading the bible. We may know His different commands and know what pleases Him and displeases Him. Does this mean we really know God as a friend? To really know God, we must become one with Christ. We must be united as one with Christ. We must know Christ in our heart as a lover and friend. Then we may know God.

The bible is inspired by God, but the bible is not God.

Have you ever watched a movie that was inspired by a true story? Do you think that movie you watched is true and accurate down to every last detail? Are you watching the exact event as it actually happened, or are you watching a movie?

The bible is not the actual words of God. Rather, the words of the bible are inspired by God. This means they are a copy of His words. They are a testimony.

Because the words of the bible are inspired by God, they are profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness. However, because they are not the actual words of God, in order for a person to be saved, that person must meet Jesus Christ. They cannot just read the bible and be saved. They must come to know Jesus Christ in person, as a real and living Savior who dwells inside them. They must call out to Jesus, and not just read the bible.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/6/7 8:54Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear PreachParsley,

Quote:
I don't know of anything in the Bible that did not oringinate from God. Does anyone else? If the Bible is a reflection of the character of God and His dealings with man, why shouldn't it be called "God's Word" if it oringinated from His Spirit?



Excellent question.

Exodus 31:18 (NAS)
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Why does are the ten commandment that were written by the very finger of God called a "testimony." Should these not be called the Word of God?

The reasoning is very specific. The stone tablets where two vessels by which held a recording of God's commands. Think of it like this, when God speaks His Words proceed from His mouth. These words come directly from God and are God. They cannot be changed or altered. They cannot be destroyed. They are as firm and true as God Himself.

These words may be recorded or repeated. They can be recorded on stones or on paper. Or they may be repeated by another person. The stones or the person relays the message. However, the substance that speaks is not God Himself. The stones are not God, and neither is the person. And so, the words are not from God. Rather, the stones are a testimony. They are relaying the message of God in another form or substance. A person is also speaking a testimony. They are sharing an experience where they actually encountered or heard the true Word of God.

There is only one person in all of history whose words were ever said to be the very words of God. This is Jesus. John the baptist said of Him, "He speaks God's Words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit." John 2:34 The Words that come from Jesus are the Words of God. They are not a testimony. Jesus did not witness God, rather Jesus is God.

The bible is a witness to God. The bible tells about God. However, the words of the bible are not the Words of God Himself. The bible is a testimony to God, but not God Himself.

This is a really abstract concept, I am sure. And for many, it may seem insiginifacnt and unimportant. But rather, it is very important. The Word of God is God. The Word of God is as true and sure as God Himself. A testimony of God is something that is fallible, but is a also a vessel by which the Word of God comes through.

For example, you are a preacher. Hopefully, God uses you to speak. His Spirit will fill you and give you the words to say. In that moment, you are speaking the Word of God. You are being used like a tool or a vessel to speak the Word of God. Does that mean you are the Word of God? Does that mean your words are the Word of God?

No, it does not. Your words are still your own. Your words are inspired by God, however, they are still yours. You are just a messenger. You are bearing a testimony to those you preach. You are not God Himself, but a messenger of God.

The same is true of the bible. The bible is a testimony of God, specifically Jesus. (John 5:39)

This is not a small matter. This is significant. When we say the bible is the Word of God, we are saying the bible is God. This is a great deception leading many people away from Christ. There are many people who think they know God or Jesus because they read and follow the bible. There are people who worship the bible as if it were God. There are people who are going to Hell who don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior because they believe the bible is the Word of God, but yet, do not know Christ in Spirit and truth. There are people who believe in the bible, but do not believe in Christ.

When I die and stand before Christ, though I am saved, I will have to give an account of every word and deed I done here on earth. Because of this, I am fighting for the truth. I do not wish the blood of many on my hands.

I pray the Lord will open the eyes of many more,

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/6/7 9:25Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear boomatt,

Quote:
We are justified because of what the scripture says. What kind of christ on the cross do you have without the scriptures?



A living God who gave His life in exchange for others.

If you believe you are justified by scripture, then there is not much I can say or do. I will pray for you.

I have been justified by Christ. Now, many will point out saying, "The Christ of the bible." And I will be quick to point out that I have been saved by Christ in Heaven. I am justified by the God who lives, through His death on the cross.

The bible is just a story of what happened. It is not the actual even itself. What happened on the cross took place whether the bible was written or not. The bible is a testimony of witnesses who observed this event. The bible is a record of what happened. Christ, however, lives in Heaven. He is the one who saves and transforms. He baptized with Spirit.

I am not justified by the story of Christ, I am justified by Christ Himself and what He did on the cross. I may read the bible all my life and never come to know Jesus, and never be justified. Sure, I know about Jesus. I have heard of Him. I have read the bible. But how is it I am saved? How is it I am justified by God?

I am justified by sharing in that experience on the cross with Christ. I died on the cross with Christ. I partook in His death and ressurrection. This happened through my baptism.

The bible was an aid in this process as it convinced me to repent and turn to Christ. However, the bible was not the only aid. My brother played an even larger part in this. God used my brother to speak to me continually for six months. I had read the bible my entire life to no avail. My brother, however, a person alive in Christ, showed me Christ through His steadfastness. I could see Christ in Him, without know it. Through His love, I turned from my wicked ways.

My brother and the bible aided my turning to Christ. When repented before Christ calling out to Him for salvation, He saved me. The bible did not save me.

After being saved, I then read the bible from cover to cover. Christ revealed to me the truth within. The bible did not save me or did it give me faith. Rather, it was an aid in my faith. It helped to affirm my faith.

There is a significant difference between basing your faith on the bible, and being affirmed by it. As Christians, our faith should always be based on Christ. The bible should help affirm our faith, but never be the reason for it. Likewise, the testimonies of others should also affirm our faith. When we see other people turn to Christ, we should be able to share our stories of how God is working in our lives and be affirmed in our faith. We always base our faith and keep our faith in Christ, the living Christ in Heaven. The testimony of the bible and of others helps to make our faith stronger by affirming it.

I hope you can see the difference. It is an extremely important difference.

In love,

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/6/7 9:48Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Mishandling the Word of God

Quote:
If you believe you are justified by scripture, then there is not much I can say or do. I will pray for you.



I doubt the intention but what you may be failing to see is that you are doing a "bait and switch" with all this and it is very wearisome and grievous that you find yourself seemingly above it all by what you are bringing forth here.

It is a unnecessary dividing that you are doing and a extreme overemphasizing. The scriptures are not a plaything to be tossed around at whim but a [i]record[/i] of Gods thought and much more than mere "stories", you are denigrating that which you do not fully comprehend nor have all the collective minds of all the ages ever fully mined to a conclusion nor will they ever.

To give just the smallest iota of agreement with your sentiment about those who have understood the gospel without this precious record ... I recently listened to a message by DeVern Fromke where he attested to a group of saints in then Communist Russia who [i]heard[/i] the gospel at some point and were saved but due to the restrictions of their country never had the scriptures until the curtain fell. The situation he described was of them hearing a preacher expounding the scriptures they had never heard and afterwords many of them coming up to him and stating "Yes, yes, we knew this, the Lord told us these things."

The point of the matter is this is of course possible and at the same time it also proves the "both" of the matter, they are not divorced from each other and just as well somewhere along the way somebody had to have an understanding of these same scriptures to tell them from the outset just what the gospel is, not unlike what your brother did in your case.

At the rate you are going you will be promoting not only an anti-Berean mindset as well as having nothing but an inward witness that is still contained in a body of sinful flesh, a mind, that if you have come to recognize anything at all is full of deceptions and a devil who wishes nothing more than to deceive you into believing you can do without the very scriptures that contain and express Gods thought. The former example is the exception, not the rule.

[i] It is written[/i] for good reason, if we do not have this to bring all our fallen understanding as a safeguard and check against, then it is everyman for himself, that which we have far too much of in this day. This is the very stuff cult's are made of. You need to think this over again and think very seriously about what it is you are doing.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/6/7 10:38Profile





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