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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

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 Re:


Logic wrote:

Quote:
it is AN evidence, but not the evidence.




Since Holy Spirit baptism is an IMMEDIATE happening, not unlike water baptism where one gets all wet, what other IMMEDIATE evidence could there be except something such as tongues, in your estimation? Certainly it was the only evidence given in Acts 2; 10 and 19.

Orm.. :-)

 2006/5/25 19:17
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

great post compton. I agree 100%


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/25 19:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.


xxxxxxx
Ormly responded:
But is a requirement for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ. Think otherwise and that the "casual" Christian will be also and your are in deception.
Blessings,

Orm



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

Linda made a similar statement, and my answer is really the same:

What about the thief on the cross, what would he have to say about your opinion.?

What about the 85 year old man, that is on his deathbed, repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later?

As human beings, we do not see clearly. Unless our opinions are supported by Scripture, it is best not to share them with others. Christ is the only one that sees the heart, and He is the judge, not you and not me.

Brother Ormly, your beliefs, as shown above and elsewhere on this thread in regards to this issue would preclude these two men of entry into heaven.

What did Christ say about the matter? "Today, you shall be with me in paradise!" [Luke 23:43]


God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/25 20:36









 Re:

Quote:
What about the thief on the cross, what would he have to say about your opinion.?



Which part?

Quote:
What about the 85 year old man, that is on his deathbed, repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later?



He didn't have time repent but only ask to be forgiven.

Quote:
As human beings, we do not see clearly. Unless our opinions are supported by Scripture, it is best not to share them with others. Christ is the only one that sees the heart, and He is the judge, not you and not me.

Brother Ormly, your beliefs, as shown above and elsewhere on this thread in regards to this issue would preclude these two men of entry into heaven.

What did Christ say about the matter? "Today, you shall be with me in paradise!" [Luke 23:43]



You are asking me to pass judgment. Entry into heaven is a heart issue judged by Christ Himself.
Joint-heir-ship, while also being a judgment issue by Him is, nevertheless, a different one..

There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

Blessings,

Orm
PS. Words do mean something

 2006/5/25 21:11
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Other evidences of the baptism of the Holy Ghost are:

purity
prostration
power

These also sometimes occur:

sound of rushing, mighty wind
unconciousness
earthquakes
outbreak of public prayer that may last for days
tears
brokenness
sudden change in lifestyle(s) toward godliness
visions
large numbers of people saved
unbearable convinction

These are only some off the top of my head. Tongues are legitimate, but so is a baptism of the Holy Ghost without them.

Read the words of the likes of Smith Wigglesworth, John R Rice, R A Torrey, Evan Roberts, Duncan Campbell, A T Pierson, Martin Lloyd-Jones, Leonard Ravenhill, Charles Finney, and D L Moody. None of them spoke in tongues, but all speak specifically of the baptism of the Holy Ghost:

http://www.dyingthief.com/The_Holy_Ghost_and_the_Revival_He_Brings.doc


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/5/25 21:13Profile









 Re: The Seed of the woman

Stever posts:

All believers are “joint heirs” with Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ, the “Seed of the Woman” [Genesis 3:14-15) is what saves us, and is what makes us joint heirs at the same time.

Christ is the "heir of all things" (Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:15). Believers are heirs of the "promise," "of righteousness," "of the kingdom," "of the world," "of God," "joint heirs" with Christ (Gal 3:29; Heb. 6:17; 11:7; James 2:5; Rom. 4:13; 8:17).

[Hebrews 1:2]
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Col 1:15]
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Galatians 3:29
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 6:17
17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 11:7
7.By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

James 2:5
5.Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Romans 4:13
13.For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 8:17
16.And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Saving faith is so called because it has eternal life inseparably connected with it. It cannot be better defined than in the words of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism: "Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel." The object of saving faith is the whole revealed Word of God. Faith accepts and believes it as the very truth most sure. But the special act of faith which unites to Christ has as its object the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all his offices.


All believers are joint heirs. Those before the cross, who BELIEVED God in what happened in the Garden, that the seed of the woman would come and bruise Satans head, and in the process have His own heel bruised, and redeem fallen man to Himself were saved. Adam was still living and was approximately 685 years old when Methusaleh was born. They lived in the same area, and tilled the same earth. After Methusalh was born Adam lived another 245 years before he died. At that time, Methusaleh was 245 years old and lived another 725 years before dying (in the same year as the flood- before the flood). Adam lived a total 930 years and during that time he was living, passing the story (the seed of the woman) on to whoever would believe. The revelation of who God is, and His plan for salvation was a continuing revelation, first through Adam, then Abel, and Seth and down to Noah. Shem carried it forward on the other side of the flood, and then Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest. All of these men had faith, faith in God, and faith (belief) in the Messiah to come. Others, who heard the story, and did not believe it had faith in man. Men like Cain before the flood, and Canaan, the son of Ham after the flood. These were godless men, that wanted nothing to do with God, nor in His promise. All of the believers before the cross, who were housed in Abrahams bosom, were taken captive to heaven by Christ, after the resurrection. [Ephesians 4:8-10]. The same endless story continues today---those that believe God, and trust in him, and those that will not.

Those that are saved after the cross have faith (belief) in Jesus Christ, and in his birth, death, and resurrection from the dead, and have accepted Him as Lord.


All of these believers will be "joint heirs" with Jesus Christ. There is no division between believers- those of the Old Testament, before the Cross, and those of the New Testament, after the Cross.


God bless,

Stever :-)

Genesis 3:14-15
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [WOMEN DO NOT HAVE SEED, MEN HAVE SEED); it (HER SEED, JESUS CHRIST, THE MESSIAH) shall bruise thy head [SATAN'S], and thou shalt bruise his [CHRIST'S] heel [THE CRUCIFIXION IS THE ONLY FORM OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT THAT BRUISES THE HEAL. THE PERSON ON THE CROSS IS SUFFOCATING, AND HAS TO CONTINUALLY PUSH UP FROM THE HEAL THAT IS NAILED CLOSEST TO THE CROSS, IN ORDER TO CONTINUE GASPING FOR AIR TO TRY AND BREATH].

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Olmry posted:

[snipped]

You are asking me to pass judgment. Entry into heaven is a heart issue judged by Christ Himself.
Joint-heir-ship, while also being a judgment issue by Him is, nevertheless, a different one..

There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

Blessings,

Orm
PS. Words do mean something


 2006/5/25 22:08









 Re:

Well my brother Stever, as someone awhile back suggested we do is, take another look at the word "believer". I'm telling you here and now that all "believers", the confessors of His name as the one who has saved them, will NOT be joint-heirs with Christ. Why? Because there is a price to pay that Jesus and Paul speak of that you are completely ignoring and most others who want Jesus, but on their own terms, without intimacy, are also. It is a painful way. It is the way of the cross. Away that relies heavily upon the power of the Holy Ghost for victory, making the Baptism of the Holy Ghost vitally important. Everyone should desire it because everyone should desire victory and helps that make victory possible. How does one receive the genuine article? ---- How bad you want relationship with the Father because that's what it is all about--relationship?

Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
[b]"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."[/b]



Blessings,

Orm

 2006/5/26 4:23
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Since Holy Spirit baptism is an IMMEDIATE happening, not unlike water baptism where one gets all wet, what other IMMEDIATE evidence could there be except something such as tongues,.......Certainly it was the only evidence given in Acts 2; 10 and 19.


And from a man who raised people from the dead,
Smith Wigglesworth, threw out a challenge to any person who could prove that he has the Baptism without speaking in tongues - to prove it by the Word that he has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit without this evidence. He said that many, as he did, have a rigid idea that they have received the Baptism without the evidence.

Quote:
"Have a bible proof for all you have and then you will be in a place where no man can move you." Smith Wigglesworth


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/26 6:49Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Letsgetbusy wrote:

Quote:
Read the words of the likes of Smith Wigglesworth ..... none of them spoke in tongues,


"Ever Increasing Faith" is the story of Smith Wigglesworth and his receiving the Baptism in the Holy Ghost and the utterance in tongues. (He always thought he had received the Baptism until this experience).

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/26 7:31Profile









 Re:


Stever responds to Ormly:

I think we have all heard your position on this, now many times.

Please, support your position with proof text from Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Quote:

wrote:
Well my brother Stever, as someone awhile back suggested we do is, take another look at the word "believer". I'm telling you here and now that all "believers", the confessors of His name as the one who has saved them, will NOT be joint-heirs with Christ. Why? Because there is a price to pay that Jesus and Paul speak of that you are completely ignoring and most others who want Jesus, but on their own terms, without intimacy, are also. It is a painful way. It is the way of the cross. Away that relies heavily upon the power of the Holy Ghost for victory, making the Baptism of the Holy Ghost vitally important. Everyone should desire it because everyone should desire victory and helps that make victory possible. How does one receive the genuine article? ---- How bad you want relationship with the Father because that's what it is all about--relationship?

Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
[b]"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."[/b]



Blessings,

Orm



 2006/5/26 8:38





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