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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

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 Re:

Quote:
Yes, one can. Judas preached the gospel and fooled all the other disciples. So one can do anything that they want without Him.



He fooled no one. Why do we persist on ignoring the fact Jesus gave a special ONETIME commandment? It wasn't repeated and it was for a reason, to reveal the power of Jesus' name. Certainly this is not the reason to believe that the Holy Ghost descended before Pentecost and gifted men. And wouldn't you think it strange that one "gifted" with such power and evidence of God would betray His Son?
Question: Do we really know that Judas actually performed miracles as directed by Jesus? The scriptures just allude to "they", the disciples in general. Wouldn't unbelief have hindered him? I don't know what he did and this is only speculation on my part. But it is based upon what we do know of him and how such a disposition as his would hinder the work of the Holy Ghost today. But on the other hand I believe we have a lot of "Judas'" out there on the stage working the miracles of God who will be judged as ones who worked with/in iniquity. Luke 13:27 (KJV)
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. [Lawlessness] Why will that be except they haven't died to their self-natures that press to be as God. That is the reason for the way of cross and the needed power of the Holy Ghost to be with us, in us and upon us. It is that task of "overcoming" by the "Blood of the Lamb" be performed in us without dissimilation. No nihilism or asceticism here. Love for God is required and alone, is accepted.

Need more scripture for this?

----------------------------------

It seems many here want to "learn" from these discussions only to disprarge given contextual facts so that their pet doctrines can be preserved.

Blessings,

:-orm

 2006/5/25 7:01
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
And wouldn't you think it strange that one "gifted" with such power and evidence of God would betray His Son?



I suppose that is the reason it's worth remembering that not all "power and evidence" should be attributed to the gift of Holy Spirit. This is the risk we take when we rely on manifestations of power as faithful witnesses.

Quote:
But on the other hand I believe we have a lot of "Judas'" out there on the stage working the miracles of God who will be judged as ones who worked with/in iniquity. Luke 13:27 (KJV)



I understand this problem can be more acute in some third world churches where Pentecostalism is mixed with deep rooted superstition and magic. Some cultures have more of a long history with supernatural power then we in the States have. Every church is vunerable to cultural syncretism...for some this is supernaturalism. The old mojos are sometimes practiced within the new matrix of Christianity.

I don't think there are any hard dogmatic rules here. Various antedotal stories don't invalidate or substantiate any doctrines. Overall, regardless of our positions, I think it's prudent to accept that certain manifestations are not indisputable proof of the Holy Spirit. Even tongues themselves, in some form, are "practiced" by many other religions.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/5/25 8:27Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Quote:
Stever's resonse:

I think all of us will be suprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.



Hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but the devil believes this about Jesus also. That word believe ought to be examined.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/25 11:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't think there are any hard dogmatic rules here. Various antedotal stories don't invalidate or substantiate any doctrines. Overall, regardless of our positions, I think it's prudent to accept that certain manifestations are not indisputable proof of the Holy Spirit. Even tongues themselves, in some form, are "practiced" by many other religions.



Please name them,I'm sure we all would like to know..

Orm

 2006/5/25 15:57









 Re:

Quote:
I suppose that is the reason it's worth remembering that not all "power and evidence" should be attributed to the gift of Holy Spirit. This is the risk we take when we rely on manifestations of power as faithful witnesses.



This should be remembered though perhaps for different reasons you have in mind.

The devil can afflict. We know that from Job's circumstances. Would it be unreasonable to believe that when words, prayers and commands all in the name of Jesus mind you, be recited, Satan would retract the affliction and God permit it for the destruction of the individuals involved?

Consider it.

Orm

 2006/5/25 16:19
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Please name them,I'm sure we all would like to know..



Bro,

I hope your'e not thinking I'm looking for conflict. I apologize if somehow I inadvertently gave that impression. SI is a great place, but sometimes we percieve antagonism where there is none! I'm not disputing any one's doctrine...just offering some round discussion points here.

When I say that manifestations of power are not indisputable manifestations of the Holy Spirit, I'm referring to all of the signs and wonders that lead people astray. Certainly I'm not talking about a radical new idea there. Are there not false prophets? Are there not healings even among false religons? Does the Church have a monopoly on supernaturalism and spiritualism?

When I say that other religons practice froms of tongues, I am referring to the manifestation of "Glossolalia" in false and mystery religions. Various forms of tongues can be found in groups as diverse as Mormons, Muslims, and participants in Voodoo. The ancient priests at Delphi are known to have spoken in some type of estatic tongue. (Ever wonder why Paul spends so much time on the subject matter with the Corinthians? I think it's because that Greek city was exposed to all sorts of carnal and pagan counterfiets of supernaturalism and superstition.)

This elementary matter about supernaturalism is all I was saying. I wasn't disputing anyones beliefs, nor was I disparaging the gifts, which I firmly believe in. Hopefully nothing else in inferred from my straightfoward statements other then my clear intentions.

My point is simple:

Supernaturalism is not full proof evidence of the Holy Spirit.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/5/25 17:47Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

[b]Act 1:8[/b] [color=990000]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[/color]

The evidence is power.
Power to be a witness,
Power to lead a holy life,
Power to understand Gods word,
Power to pray... ect...

Why do people always think the least of all gifts is the evidence of the Holy Ghost coming upon us?

 2006/5/25 17:57Profile









 Re:

I didn't taken offense, I've heard all the arguments and pretty much know what generates them, but someone else might have. Thanks for your explanation.


But here you ask:

Quote:
(Ever wonder why Paul spends so much time on the subject matter with the Corinthians? I think it's because that Greek city was exposed to all sorts of carnal and pagan counterfiets of supernaturalism and superstition.)



No I haven't. I believe the record, as written, is quite clear. Very simply put, they were not using their gift properly. I never attempted to read anything more into that.

Side note:

I personally know of some deaf and dumb who have spoken as evidence of the baptism and when it was over they went back to hand signals. True story.


:-)rm

 2006/5/25 18:34
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

it is [b]AN[/b] evidence, but not [b]the[/b] evidence.

 2006/5/25 18:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:

linda7 wrote:
Quote:
Stever's resonse:

I think all of us will be suprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.




Hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but the devil believes this about Jesus also. That word believe ought to be examined.

In His Love
Linda



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

I wonder what the thief on the cross would have to say about your opinion?

How about the 85 year old man on his deathbed, who repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later.

What would he have to say to you?

We must all be careful about our opinions, and base them on Scripture, and not just our own understanding. We are still in this flesh and blood that we inherited from Adam, that is deceitfully wicked.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S. Christ is the only one that sees the heart. We still see through the glass darkly, but he sees through everything:

[Hebrews 4:12-16]
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 2006/5/25 18:58





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