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letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

"It could be said that the church, in this present day, left too soon."

In one sense I agree with you, but there is something that must be added to this. Before the disciples were endued with power from on high, they still went out and preached that men should repent.

Mark 6:12 "And they went out, and preached that men should repent."

So I agree that we should be waiting on God, as one could easily see the results of John Baptist and Jesus, two filled with the Holy Ghost, versus the results of the 12 prior to the Holy Ghost falling on them.

So while I do think we go out too quick, I don't think this is a blanket to discount Christians from witnessing who are not filled with the Holy Ghost, but rather that all Christians who are witnessing should be praying to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

I would agree that we tend to rely on self, even as faithful witnesses of Christ, and often fail to ask for His Spirit to win people, and instead work in the flesh. I know I do this.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/5/24 10:14Profile









 Re:

Olmry posted:

"Ok, I will. Witness-Martyr, as implied in most ALL context in the NT, has to do with dying to self; the dying to our self emotions, overcoming them that the Life Christ within can be revealed. This can only be done achieved by union with Christ and is the prime reason for the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.. His was the work of the cross while ours must be the way of the cross. In the sense we die daily His Life will come though to effect our relations with others"

Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.

No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.

However, I think that dying to self is a good thing for all mature Christians to seek.


God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/24 10:36









 Re:

Quote:
".............Before the disciples were endued with power from on high, they still went out and preached that men should repent.

Mark 6:12 "And they went out, and preached that men should repent.""



As everyone knows this was a special ordination before the cross. This was done before the new birth could be experienced never mind the baptism. You might want to study to find out why Jesus did this.

Quote:
So while I do think we go out too quick, I don't think this is a blanket to discount Christians from witnessing who are not filled with the Holy Ghost, but rather that all Christians who are witnessing should be praying to be filled with the Holy Ghost.



So I guess you believe you can do it without Him? You have the discernment, the Spirit without the Spirit?
?Hmmm?

Blessings,

Orm

 2006/5/24 20:31









 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.



And Paul brought correction into that church, right?

Quote:
No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.



Wasn't it you who said it came by the laying on of hands? I'm confused.

Quote:
However, I think that dying to self is a good thing for all mature Christians to seek.



#1. I never said it was a [b]requirement[/b] for receiving the baptism. Try reading my remarks again for the first time.

#2. Dying to self is NOT an elective. It is the way of the cross. If one wants to be mature one learns early on that dying to self is a prerequiste.

Blessings,

Orm

 2006/5/24 20:40









 Re:

Olmry posted:

"#2. Dying to self is NOT an elective. It is the way of the cross. If one wants to be mature one learns early on that dying to self is a prerequiste."
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Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/24 22:16









 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Stever's response:

Of all the people that I know of that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the requirement of "dying to self" had nothing to do with receiving it. Look at the Church at Corinth, who had received all of the gifts.



And Paul brought correction into that church, right?

Quote:
No, I don't believe that dying to self is a requirement for this Baptism, because the Bible tells that ALL that we have to do is ask for it from God in prayer to be able to receive it. It is a GIFT, and nothing we have to WORK for to receive.



Wasn't it you who said it came by the laying on of hands? I'm confused.

[Snipped]
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Stever's response:

Paul was more concerned about the Baptism of the Holy Ghost than he was water baptism. He states that he only baptized 2 or 3 with water.

What does God's Word say about how Paul brought Christian believers into this Baptism of the Holy Ghost, that provides power to the beleiver?
Why is the gift of the Holy Spirit missing in our Church today? We have all been water baptized, but where is the power that Christ promised the believer?

John tells us that he baptized with water, but that He (Christ) would baptize believers with the Holy Ghost and Fire. This Baptism would provide them with the power to be a witness for Him, and to do the work of the Church. This is the missing element in todays Church, to be sure. After Pentecost the Bible teaches that in most instances the filling of the Holy Spirit does not happen at the time of water baptism. When does it happen?

The Bible tells us that it happens most often by the LAYING ON OF HANDS OF OTHER SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. Some examples of this are as follows:


Acts 6: 5. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:6. Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, THEY LAID THEIR HANDS ON THEM.
7. And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.


Acts 8: 14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. THEN LAID THEY THEIR HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.


Acts 8: 18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19. SAYING, GIVE ME ALSO THIS POWER, THAT ON WHOMSOEVER I LAY HANDS, HE MAY RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.

Acts 9: 17. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; AND PUTTING HIS HANDS ON HIM SAID, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, AND BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.
18. AND IMMEDIATELY THERE FELL FROM HIS EYES AS IT HAD BEEN SCALES: and he received sight forthwith...”

Acts 13: 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3. And when they had fasted and prayed, AND LAID THEIR HANDS ON THEM, they sent them away.
4. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."

Acts 19:" 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And WHEN PAUL HAD LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7. And all the men were about twelve."

Acts 28:" 8. And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, AND LAID HIS HANDS ON HIM, and HEALED HIM.

1 Timothy 4:" 13. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the LAYING ON OF THE HANDS OF THE PRESBYTERY."

1 Timothy 5:" 22. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure."

2 Timothy 1: 6. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, WHICH IS IN THEE BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS.
7. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Hebrews 6:" 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of LAYING ON OF HANDS, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit."

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I pray that this is helpful for all those interested in this Baptism of Fire. Have you received this Baptism?

"Ye have not because you ask not!"

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/24 22:59
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

'So I guess you believe you can do it without Him? You have the discernment, the Spirit without the Spirit?'

Yes, one can. Judas preached the gospel and fooled all the other disciples. So one can do anything that they want without Him.

A Christian can preach the gospel without being filled with the Spirit. I don't think it is a good idea, and I don't promote the idea. I think we should preach the gospel, and be filled with the Spirit, but the woman at the well sure didn't wait to be endued by power from on high.

So, what I was trying to say is that we cannot stop those who aren't filled from preaching the gospel. One who has the Spirit, but not in fullness, has as much right to tell their brother how God has saved them.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/5/24 23:25Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:


I have been baptized in the holy ghost. I have not received the gift of tongues, and dont feel 95% of the people who claim to get them, actually do.

I just cant see how I go to one church, the congregation speak with the same utterances as one another. But if I go to a church down the street, they all have the same utterances as one another. But the church's all sound different. I just dont get how that can be. I dont think the Lord said he was an author of confusion. I head one woman say shimei shimei shimei about 15 times, yet never repeated a word in english. I try to translate this in my head, but all I get is this: My children (shimei), Hearken (shimei) unto (shimei) me(shimei).

I am not trying to poke fun at this, but this is what really goes on in my head the whole time I hear this Boloni. I do believe in a Baptism of fire, I came from a pentecostal background, but that is also a reason why I left such a denomination.

I would like some feedback from some of you on this. I am always open to hear what people have to say about this. :-)


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/25 0:26Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Judas preached the gospel and fooled all the other disciples.



I'm one of the silent readers enjoying this interesting thread. I'll just weigh in for a second to hilight Letgetbusy's point.

While the indwelling Spirit can be manifest via works, works are not always evidence of the Spirit. That Judas was one of the 12, going out preaching, presumedly performing signs, and generally risking rejection and hostility for the Gospel is, as one theologian descibed, "a dark riddle" for the Christian.

I think Wesely addresses this dark riddle with his infamous establishment offending sermon "The Almost Christian."

First the riddle according to Wesley...

""I did for many years, as many of this place can testify; using diligence to eschew all evil, and to have a conscience void of offence; redeeming the time; buying up every opportunity of doing all good to all men; constantly and carefully using all the public and private means of grace; endeavoring, after a steady seriousness of behavior, at all times, and in all places: and God is my record, before whom I stand, doing all this in sincerity; having a real design to serve God; a hearty desire to do His will in all things; to please Him who had called me to "fight the good fight," and to "lay hold on eternal life." Yet my own conscience bears me witness, in the Holy Ghost, that all this time I was but almost a Christian."

Then the solution as Wesley preached it...

"And is this commandment written in your heart: That he who loves God love his brother also? Do you then love your brother as yourself? Do you love every man, even your enemies, even the enemies of God, as your own soul? As Christ loved you? Do you believe that Christ loved you, and gave Himself for you? Have you indeed redemption through His blood, even the remission of thy sins? And does His Spirit bear witness with your spirit, that you are a child of God?"

I think that last line sums up the true evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit...the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. We are looking for an additional "spirit of Power" when it's the Spirit of Truth within that is the power. We witness outwardly with boldness because we are witnessed to inwardly. Against this inward solitary comfort, no momentary feeling, pursuasive preaching, miraculous manifestation, or blowing winds of various doctrine can compare.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/5/25 0:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response:

I think all of us will be surprised about who is in heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.

I think there will be many who are in heaven who have no knowledge of dying to self. It is not a requirement for being saved, to be clear, but it is important to die to self for a mature walk-- some make it early on, some later, and some Christians never make it.



But is a requirement for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ. Think otherwise and that the "casual" Christian will be also and your are in deception.

Blessings,

Orm

 2006/5/25 6:54





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