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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

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 Re:

Linda posted:
"A second point I would like to make is, I have a friend who received tongues many years ago, but does not have any power to witness and it bothers her. She fell away from the faith also for about 20 years. I am beginning to wonder what did she receive then? "

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Stever's response:

David du Plessis fell into lots of trouble after receiving this Baptism of the Holy Ghost in his later years. This is not a one time event, the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Once you receive it, you have to continually pray to God for a refill! Based upon the way that du Plessis ended up, by embracing Catholicism and the Virgin Mary, I really wonder if he was even saved at all. At the very least he was deceived, and based upon his actions, Christ will be the final judge of whether he was really saved or not.

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[u][i][b][color=00CC00]DU PLESSIS WORKED WITH CATHOLICS -[/color][/b][/i][/u]-

David du Plessis was known as "Mr. Pentecost" but "Mr. Ecumenical" would have been just as accurate. At his death in 1987, he had been active in World Council of Churches and Catholic-Pentecostal dialogues (see 4/15/87 CC). He accepted the Catholic dogma of papal infallibility and tolerated apparitions of the Virgin Mary. [b]He was the first non-Roman Catholic ever to receive the distinguished Renemerenti Medal (11/98 Charisma). [/b] He was a resident consultant on ecumenical affairs at [b][color=00CC00]Fuller Seminary[/color][/b].
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This should provide some light on your friend. Just because she said that she received this baptism does not mean that she really did. Anyone can babble and pretend they are speaking in tongues. The person that has been Spirit Filled fells the anointing, the unction that is in his/her throat before the words come out (at least that is the way it is with us [my wife and myself]. One of the difficulties in the Spirit Filled, Baptised in the Holy Ghost movement is that there is lots of flesh out there. There are also those that say they have received this baptism, but have not.

Christ said that none of His would ever escape His hand.


God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/20 19:11









 Re:

Stever posts:

This is more information about David du Plessis and his fall into Catholicism.

By David W. Cloud
Copyright 1991

Another example of Townsend’s (Cameron Townsend, founder of Wycliffe, and he established Wycliffe on a doctrinally compromised foundation) extreme ecumenism is found in the following testimony of the late David du Plessis, the charismatic leader who was instrumental in bringing Pentecostals together with Rome:

“Cam Townsend (founder of Wycliffe) came to me ( du Plessis ) and indicated that he was going to send me to the [Roman Catholic] Vatican II Council in 1962 as Wycliffe’s representative. When I arrived in Rome, a particular cardinal called and said he was going to pick me up at my hotel. ... The cardinal arrived at my hotel, and when he came in the room, we both hugged one another and cried.

“I believe that God is going to unify the church. When you study the history of the church, you will notice that when Christianity became less and less ecumenical and more and more national, she also became less and less charismatic and more formal and divided by theological dissensions. The unity that God will bring about will be both charismatic and ecumenical” (David du Plessis, “David du Plessis Speaks On,” Paraclete Journal, Fellowship Christian Church, Cincinati, Ohio, Oct. 1986, pp. 11,14).
The remainder of this article can be found at:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/wycliffebible.htm

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One thing that I feel here is pride, and one thing I see here is the flesh. Pride always precedes the fall.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/20 19:46









 Re:

Begging you pardon Stever, It is NOT an infilling that needs repeating when speaking of the baptism. It is the "Coming upon". A one time event. One is infilled when born again. If you don't see it that way then please explain what being again means and what happens when one is. Our example for this is Jesus Himself. One infilling, His birth, one baptism, the beginning of His ministry. Now what needs to be maintained is our allegiance to the Father as He maintained it when He uttered to Himself in the wilderness: "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". For Him the word was the Christ of Himself, equal to the Father. For us it is Himself as we are born again of His Spirit, full of the Godhead.

Being full of the Holy Ghost is for others to experience the anointing upon us because of our intimacy with Him and in Him.(Jn 17)We may not be aware of our influence at such moments but "Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." It is done by diligence and the the anointing [b]upon[/b] our lives; The unseen guest [b]within[/b] us who is [b]with[/b] us. His Life, His Faith, lived out BY us. Gal 2.20.

Thanks and Blessings,

8-)rm

 2006/5/20 20:21









 Re: Baptism in the Holy Ghost

Stever responds to Ormly:

I have found in my walk that once I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the “overflow” that it is referred to, that it was not as powerful over time, as it was on the first night that I received it. The more I thought about it, I realized in my spirit that it was exactly what it is called--the overflow. So, I started asking God for this Baptism of the Holy Ghost again each day, the Baptism of Power, the overflow.


Why do I do that? I have found that it gives me a closer walk with God. The “overflow” that I received is exactly that—an overflow. On the first night that I received this Baptism I was overjoyed in my Spirit, and close to God beyond measure. As the weeks and months went by I did not feel as close to HIM as on that night. I started praying for the overflow again, for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to come UPON me for the work that he had for me for that day.

It has helped my walk, and I surely need more of His Spirit in my life. This prayer also keeps me on track, and keeps me focused me on my purpose for living. My purpose is to do His will, to witness to anyone that He sends my way, and to lead others into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (the Baptism that comes UPON the believer by the laying on of hands and provides the power and boldness to go about His work).

To sum this up, I am very concerned about the FLESH that gets in our way, once we have this Baptism of power. By continually focusing on God, and praying to Him each day to empower me for another day, my flesh is constantly kept in check. If something supernatural happens, I know that He is behind it, not me. I know that He is what it (life) is all about, not me.

By doing this I have come to the understanding and belief that:

1. He is the one with the Healing ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills

2. He is the one with the Word of Knowledge ministry & Words of Wisdom ministry. He only uses me when He wills.

3. He is the one with the faith ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills.

4. He is the one with the Miracle Working ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills.

5. He is the one with the Prophecy ministry, not me. He only uses me when He wills

6. He is the one with the "distinguishing of spirits ministry", not me. He only uses me when He wills.

7. He is the one with the tongues ministry, not me. He only uses me and gives me this gift as He wills.

8. He is the one with the "interpretation of tongues" ministry, not me. He only uses me, and give me this gift as He wills.

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God bless,

Stever :-)

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 2006/5/21 2:57









 Re:

In other words you must feel this overflow and sense of His presence or feel disconnected from Him? Is that what I'm given to understand? If that is the case then I wonder what Jesus must have felt when he was in the wilderness?

Blessings,

:-(rm

 2006/5/21 7:35
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Stever wrote:

Quote:
have found in my walk that once I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the “overflow” that it is referred to, that it was not as powerful over time, as it was on the first night that I received it.... So, I started asking God for this Baptism of the Holy Ghost again each day, the Baptism of Power, the overflow.



Quote:
Why do I do that? I have found that it gives me a closer walk with God. The “overflow” that I received is exactly that—an overflow. On the first night that I received this Baptism I was overjoyed in my Spirit, and close to God beyond measure. As the weeks and months went by I did not feel as close to HIM as on that night. I started praying for the overflow again, for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to come UPON me for the work that he had for me for that day.



We know the purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is for the power to serve . We do receive a wonderful experience that time when we are Baptized. But to seek to duplicate the experience, especially for good feelings and closeness to God through it, is kind of self-serving don't you think?

Did you lose the unction to function or did you lose the good feelings? Or both?

Smith Wigglesworth once said that a preacher, after he loses his unction, should inwardly repent and get right with God and get the unction back. We are no good without the unction.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/21 18:15Profile









 Re:

Stever posts to Linda and Olmy:

The following represents my position on the "re-filling" that is supported by Scripture, as well as my own personal walk. My position is also supported by D.L. Moody, Floyd Nolen Jones, Pat Robertson and others. Most important is that it is supported by Scripture.

[b][color=0066FF]Discipleship[/color][/b]

[u][b][color=0066FF]The Filling of the Holy Spirit[/color][/b][/u]

By Joel Comiskey




CBN.com – For two years, I lived in Pasadena, California, the home of the famous New Year’s Day Rose Parade. One year during the parade, a beautiful float suddenly sputtered and coasted to a halt. It was out of gas. The whole parade was held up until someone could get a can of gas over to the float and get it moving again. The amusing thing was that this float represented the Standard Oil Company! Even with its vast oil resources, the company’s truck had run out of gas.

In much the same way, Christians often neglect their spiritual maintenance, and although they have been filled with the Holy Spirit, they need to be refilled. When the greatest evangelist of the nineteenth century, D.L. Moody, was asked why he said he needed to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit, he replied, “Because I leak!” Like Moody, we all run out of gas and need the power of the Holy Spirit to recharge our lives. This article will clarify how to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit.

The Power of the Holy Spirit

In Ephesians 5:18, Paul wrote: “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.” In the original Greek, the phrase be filled is a present-tense verb. To signify a “one-time filling,” Paul would have used the past tense or a future verb tense; instead, he chose the present tense to denote that the filling of the Holy Spirit is not a one-time event, but a continual experience. Scripture says that we must be continually filled with the Spirit, not just once or twice.

The word filling seems awkward when referring to the Holy Spirit’s entrance into our lives. The Spirit of God is not a liquid, like water. He does not fill a person the way cold milk fills a cup. The Holy Spirit is God—He is one in essence with the Father and the Son—but He is also a distinct Person and has all the attributes of a person. That is why we refer to the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity. Many Scripture passages point to these facts. 1 Like a person, the Holy Spirit searches, helps and guides.2 He knows; He feels; He wills. Scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit’s mind, His love and His instruction.3 In Ephesians 4:30, Paul wrote: “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” The only way we can grieve someone is if the one we are grieving is a person.

Because the Holy Spirit is a Person, it makes more sense to talk about the Holy Spirit’s control or compulsion in our lives, rather than His filling of our lives. Holy Spirit-driven is a good way to look at our response to His control. A person who is filled with the Spirit is driven by the Spirit—driven in a gentle, loving way. A Spirit-driven person allows the Holy Spirit to direct and guide every decision, plan and activity. Because the world, the flesh and the devil oppose the Spirit-controlled lifestyle, we need to be filled and renewed continually.

I was first filled with the Holy Spirit in early 1974. In September 1973, approximately four months earlier, I had received Jesus by praying the prayer of salvation in my bedroom, yet I lacked power in my life. During those initial months as a Christian, I was afraid to proclaim to others my newfound faith in Christ. I was in my last year of high school and desperate to become bold about my faith. My lack of spiritual power led me to attend a miracle service of Shekinah Fellowship that gathered in a Foursquare church in downtown Long Beach, California.

Although I responded to the general altar call after the service, I knew exactly what I needed. I longed for power and boldness so that I would not be ashamed of my Christian faith. The elders at Shekinah prayed for me to receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I knew that they hoped I would immediately receive the gift of tongues as a sign that the Holy Spirit had fallen upon me.

I did not speak in tongues that night, but change was evident the very next day. My mom and I went to Pastor Chuck Smith’s church, Calvary Chapel, in Costa Mesa, California. All I could do was talk about Jesus—I witnessed about Jesus to everyone I saw that day. I even grilled my mother repeatedly about her faith. (She graciously overlooked a lot of zealous behavior in those days!)

My life was totally transformed from that night onward. I began to carry my Bible with me everywhere, setting it down on the right corner of each classroom desk at Millikan High School. I wanted people to know that I was a believer—and I had the confidence to prove it. The Shekinah Fellowship experience, however, was not enough. I needed repeated fillings of the Spirit’s grace and power.

Later, I did speak in tongues: I stepped out by faith and spoke in an unknown prayer language to God. Speaking in tongues was not a grand emotional experience for me, but it has helped me greatly during times when words cannot express my yearnings and petitions to God. I am thankful for the gift of tongues.

Some would call what happened to me at Shekinah Fellowship that night in 1974 “the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” Other would classify it as Joel Comiskey’s “first filling after conversion.” The most important point, however, is that I desperately needed His fullness in 1974, and I need it just as much today. I believe that my first filling in 1974 was not sufficient—it was only the first in a long line of subsequent encounters with the Holy Spirit.
Even in the book of Acts, those who experienced the Pentecostal outpouring with tongues of fire in chapter 2 still needed a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit in chapter 4. Only two chapters later, those same apostles prayed to the Lord and the place was shaken: “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly” (Acts 4:31).

It seems to me that our debates over terminology have often prevented us from seeking the Spirit’s continual fullness. All Christians can come together under the banner of eagerly desiring the Spirit’s fullness, even though not all believers label that experience in the same way. Craig Keener, a Southern Baptist professor at Eastern Seminary who had an experience of Holy Spirit similar to my own, said:

If we could get past some semantic debates in our discussions about the timing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we would have more time available for the more practical questions surrounding the Spirit’s empowerment. Nearly all Christians agree, for example, that all Christians have the Spirit by virtue of being born again. We also agree that we all should regularly experience a Spirit-filled life, walk in the Spirit, depend on the Spirit’s power in our behavior and witness, and be open to experiences from God’s Spirit subsequent to conversion.4

Before leading a small group seminar for Southern Baptist missionary leaders in Prague, Czech Republic, in 2003, I was approached by one of the missionary leaders who told me: “The only way to reach Eastern Europe with the Gospel is to seek the fullness of the Holy Spirit and operate in all of the gifts of the Spirit.” This missionary leader understood that heathen, demonic forces are too powerful for us to minister effectively apart from yielding completely to the Holy Spirit’s working. He wisely guarded his terminology, but he was speaking the same language that I hear repeatedly around the world. This Southern Baptist missionary wanted what other hungry believers across Christendom have desired throughout the ages: the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit’s presence in life and ministry.

Order your copy of The Spirit-Filled Small Group: Leading Your Group to Experience the Spiritual Gifts

More from Joel Comiskey

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God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/21 20:23
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 192
Ajijic, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

Thanks for posting brother Comiskey's message, Stever.
I apologize that I am into this thread so late, and that I do not have the time to sit down and read all 5 pages of posts so far.
I certainly do line up with brother Comiskey's faith and experience. The bible says that we will receive "power" when the Holy Ghost comes upon us, to be witnesses. This power experience has another facet as well. Knowing God, and God knowing us. The God of history (bible experiences) becomes the God of the present and my own personal experience.
I think I have to set myself apart from all those who would say that the evidence of being filled or immersed into the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues. Paul himself, in 1 Cor 12 after outlining the main categorys of spiritual gifts asks some very specific questions all demanding the same answer, "NO".

1 Cor 12:28 So God has appointed some in the church [for His own use]: first apostles (special messengers); second prophets (inspired preachers and expounders); third teachers; then wonder-workers; then those with ability to heal the sick; helpers; administrators; [speakers in] different (unknown) tongues.
29 Are all apostles (special messengers)? Are all prophets (inspired interpreters of the will and purposes of God)? Are all teachers? Do all have the power of performing miracles?
30 Do all possess extraordinary powers of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Who are the "all" group that he is refering too? Is it not those who have been baptized in the Holy Ghost? Are not all of these "parts" evidences of being filled or baptized in the Holy Ghost. In the obvious answer that all do not speak in tongues, we also see that all do not perform miracles or have the gift of healing. But some surely do. Where oh where, pray tell, are "these"????? See the imbalance here?
This evidence of speaking in tongues is wonderful, but not all inclusive. This "evidence" is for the benefit of bragging rights for preachers who teach and preach on this subject. Getting someone to utter unknown sounds is a lot easier than having someone perform miracles or who begins to prophecy or heal the sick.
This "evidence" business has been a very discouraging experience for those like brother Comiskey. Although they cannot stop being a witness, they are quickly set aside by the "churchies" because they do not have man's evidence manifested. I've seen many people like Mr. Comiskey, myself included who were gloriously filled and yet did not fall backwards or speak in tongues, yet had the power of being a witness, a martyr if necessary as the word witness implies in Acts 1:8.
Paul explicitly declares that there are diverse kinds of gifts and diverse kinds of manifestations of those gifts. As a church, we should yeild to God what is God's, that being who get's what gift and how it is manifested. As far as evidence is concerned, seeing an introverted person become extremely extroverted in their witness of Christ says it all, and is the powerful evidence. How God chooses to give serverally is His choosing not mine. If it is God's choosing, what right do I have as a minister of the Gospel to attempt to invalidate what God is doing just because it does not line up with what mainstream pentecostal preachers declare?
We need to let God be God here, and stop trying to elevate man. Another evidence of being "filled" with the Holy Ghost is leading a "holy" life. Oh how things change when it happens. Leading a holy life is almost an unknown topic in today's pulpit fare. Why is that?
I assure you, for me, I immediately spoke with a different tongue. Gone were all the vulgarities and perverse explicatives from my mouth. In place of this old language was a language of joy, hope, praise, thanksgiving, worship, righteousness and peace. Love and encouragement became my verbal fare, encouragement to seek God and His precious Holy Spirit who will fill your heart and make Jesus your own personal Savior. Just how all this happens is God's business, as He wills, not man.
Spirtual gifts are not "merit badges" to be worn across the chest. They are tools for witnessing about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I believe that the Holy Spirit supplies all the necessary "tools" for the task at hand in our witnessing to whosoever will. What good is prophecy to someone who needs healing, a miracle, or deliverence. We need the most useful gift for the task before us.
The Holy Spirit is an ever present helper, comforter, and spiritual guide. Thank God. His presence in our lives is evidenced by the biblical truth that brother Comiskey so well states, that Jesus Himself said that when the Holy Spirit comes, "He will testify of me". Powerful anointed testimony about Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the "evidence" of the bible. It is what joys my spirit as well.
Yes, we do need an ongoing filling, because truth has a way of slipping from us. It needs be continually resupplied, as our Gracious Lord is so capapble of accomplishing to all who ask of Him. alleluia.
Thank you for affording me the opportunity to stick my nose in here. I hope that we will be more aware that how the Holy Spirit is manifested is God's business and not man's choosing. Praise God.

Humbly before Him,

"0"


_________________
Lahry Sibley

 2006/5/22 0:40Profile









 Re:

Dear Bro Onesimus,

You assume much and leave out crucial reasoning for the evidence of tongues and why it is not only something to be desired but is shown by Paul's teaching to be vital/crucial in our journey to become what Father purposes for us.

Paul said that he prayed with the understanding, his own mind, and also in the Spirit where spirit to Spirit communication/fellowship in intimacy with Father more directly, happens. Should we not desire this intimacy MORE than anything?? Think of what would happen in our local assemblies if more of us did seek Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength! They would be "turned upside down".

Here:

1 Cor. 14:14-15 (NASB-U)
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

May I say that this is NOT the gift of tongues meant to directly edify the church, which was the point he was trying to make in the context of the chapter. He was alluding to his own PERSONAL/INTIMATE prayer life. However, we can say, by his life's example, that such a prayer life would indeed edify the church. Think about that aspect of it as Paul exemplified it by the power of his walk with the Lord. No doubt some will and presently do see it as one, but we know this was NO MERIT BADGE for him or any of the ones [b]properly[/b] taught and it recieved from him on such things in Christ. Consider this example:
Acts 19:1-6 (NASB-U)
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. [2] He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." ...............[6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Was this the gift of tongues or the simple evidence of the baptism? I say the latter. Certainly Paul was justly persuaded of that. But then what gift[s] did they receive? We know from context they prophecied. Was it the gift of direct prophecy, as Prophet might do, or was it the gifts of tongues and interpretation? I'm also inclined to believe the latter. They have schools for Prophets but there is no school for the gift of tongues and interpretation.

Was this a merit badge they were looking for? Indeed, they didn't know of any merit badges. They didn't even know of the baptism! And this was about twenty years after Paul's conversion!

Again from Paul:

1 Cor. 14:1-5 (NASB-U)
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. [2] [b]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God[/b]; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. [3] But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. [4] [b]One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself[/b]; but one who prophesies edifies the church. [5] Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Many against private "tongues speaking" are quick to say that to edify yourself is selfish-self gratifying. Was Paul? He spoke in them more than all; his life was one of establishing as ours should be. And again will not this edifying of the individual, the one who is pursuing LOVE by his experience [b]into[/b] Christ, this baptism into His Body be, as a consequence, edifying to the church?

I'm sorry but there is much too much evidence to the contrary of your and bro. Com's argument. The need in this seems to be discernment that needs to be sought for by the one seeking. Will the lord give a stone when bread is asked for? There will always be the sorcerer type out there who will persuade the weak that the stone is bread. He will be judged in that day along with the willful weak. Kindly read the post just a few back by David Duplesis concerning one's desire for the Baptism. It points up what really needs to be pursued.

In conclusion may I say that salvation can be looked upon contextually as "going steady" and the Baptism as the "engagement ring". It all depends on the understanding of the one seeking and how much we want HIM. Many are called, few chosen -- Why? ------
When you pray for things, you don't get them because you want them for the wrong reason........"James 4:3




Blessings,

:-Drm

 2006/5/22 8:22
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 192
Ajijic, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

hello rm,
Thank you for your post and comments. I think you probably misunderstood and I apologize for not being more clear.
I am not against tongues of unknown language. I pray in "the spirit" in an unknown language. The center point of the discussion is speaking in tongues as an "evidence" of being baptized (immersed) into the Holy Ghost.
As I mentioned, the Paul said there are diverse kinds of gifts, and diverse kinds of administration of those gifts. diverse means many of God's own choosing, as He gives severally as He wills. Paul clearly says that all do not prophecy and all do not speak in an unknown tongue. Does this mean that they are not immersed into the Holy Ghost? Not the way I understand plain english.
Paul tells us it is ok, wonderful in fact, to covet spiritual gifts, and especially that we should prophecy. Even though Paul claimed to pray in the Spirit more than anyone, he put more emphasis on prophecy.
So in closing, I would think that we should be about our great commission of preaching the Gospel and loving our God and our neighbor as ourselves, and let the Holy Spirit decide who needs and who gets what gifts. The emphasis needs to be more on Jesus Christ and Him crucified and not entirely on the Holy Spirit. Instead of coveting the gifts of the spirit from God, we often covet the gifts in another, and even to the point of jealousy, or on the other end, esteeming one person with gifts over another. All of this is counterproductive in the kingdom of God. If saints were more busy doing the word instead of talking about it, the church and the world would be a different place today.

Yours in Christ Jesus,

"0"


_________________
Lahry Sibley

 2006/5/22 10:11Profile





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