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roadsign
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 Re: letting off the restraints

Quote:
the title of this thread could make for a poor or even disastrous evangelistic track to a group of lost people waiting in line outside a nightclub.


Compton, I would love to see your hypotheses tested. I don’t have any to try this on, being rather sheltered, and not hanging out in nightclubs. I will, however, try this statement of some unchurched folk – and see how they respond.

I have a hunch, that the most dangerous audience to present this quote to is the churched – those who equate their religious dedication with loving God, those who live according to a code imposed on them externally (legal) rather than one they freely adopt from their own heart. These are the ones who may very well go wild if the restraints are taken away – you know, like the first year students in university who recently left home, along with parental restraints.

When I was in the CRC as a kid, I remember some very naughty things the kids would do when they weren’t under the careful watch of their superiors – like smoking behind the building. Some would get in trouble with the law. They were living by a code of ethics that was imposed on their will from outside of them, not by an internal code. So they behaved well when they had to. But they didn’t love God, because it was never one of the requirements, as it was foreign to their religious subculture. So when they had the chance, they went wild – probably because they were eager to break away from the controlling legalistic confines.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/4/28 21:12Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I have a hunch, that the most dangerous audience to present this quote to is the churched



Oh my...looking at how messed up my own thinking is I wouldn't doubt that.

To your point about the legal code Diane...my growing conclusion is that these walls we build to keep people behaving themselves are the same walls that keep us isolated from each other.

I sometimes suspect that much of my problem is simply a result of my nagging doubt of my position in Christ. It is worth noting that in most Christians I personally know, their great spiritual quest in life is not to reach out to the world, but instead their spiritual journey is an ever tightening inward spiral to finally find that elusive physcological relief that should be theirs as a forgiven and redeemed child of God. Oh I hope this doesn't sound "judgemental"...I mean it quite sorrowfully...if I were to be honest with people the burdens of sin I have laid down at the cross when I was a young man have been replaced with even heavier religous ones.

I can not blame the "church" for my plight...I know my own prideful desire to improve upon the simplicity of the gospel all too well. So heavy are some of my secret burdens that the slightest offense crumbles me to the ground.

And yet I do not know how to lay these things down without further offending those who expect me to carry them. Everytime someone suggests a new concern or sin in the church I groan under the weight of one more way I fail our Father. I'm not wagging the accusatory finger at others here...

Any wagging you see is really my flailing. I'm a turtle flipped on it's back, unable to move forward into rest, or backwards to innocence. And even in this desperate state, people are stumbling over me and being offended. It is enough to make me want to withdraw into my shell.

Well, this thread has caught me in a rare moment of honesty. Everyone can trust that by tomorrow morning I'll be better rested and ready to resume my self-assured semblance so as not to attract new burdens from others.

It's not a perfect system, but it is the best one we have untill that glorious day when Christ comes back and perfects love among all His people from every tribe, toungue and nation! Won't that be a wonderful time! All of our clanging cavalcades of celebration at church will give way to a real adoration. What will unity in the presence of our Savior be like? Will it be the thunder of countless saints in white singing vast and beautiful waves of shifting harmonies as they rush forwards like a great ocean towards the throne? Or will there be the first true silence of awe in the universe, as a stunned Church finally sees the face of the Lamb most worthy...her mouth agape but breathless of speech.

In any case I do not doubt that for this present age, Christ's love is resident in each and every one of us Christians. Such abundant love should make us more then able to connect with one another...where is the disconnect? I have no idea but I strongly suspect the break is somewhere in me.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/4/29 6:03Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Love God - the path to freedom

Compton, Reading your testimony has caused me to think further about my statement in my last post, about “Love God and do what you want” being a dangerous quote to present to the churched. It is not merely dangerous, but terrifying! And not merely because of the second half, “Do want you want”, but mostly because of the first part: “Love God’. For to love God is terrifying, if we really face the core of our fleshly hearts. To love God is to become that turtle without ANY shell. It is to become totally vulnerable – exposed before our heavenly Father and everybody. To love God is to pry our fingers off of all our self-efforts and all our beloved idols and cherished addictions. It is to let go of everything that holds us together (we like to believe).

To Love God is to be honest and true to who we really are – not who we wish to be, or who we try to be before others or God. Loving God requires a complete stripping of all the “fig leaves”. No wonder loving God is terrifying. We’d rather be in control and cling to some of our own efforts. We'd rather redeem ourselves, or create our own self-defence and justification.

Quote:
these walls we build to keep people behaving themselves are the same walls that keep us isolated from each other.

This is the outcome of our reluctance to love God and instead make for ourselves “flimsy whitewashed walls”. Ez 13:10

Quote:
I sometimes suspect that much of my problem is simply a result of my nagging doubt of my position in Christ.

When we unravel the legalistic springs we have wound up around ourselves, we face our fractured love for Christ, and our unwillingness to fully embrace God’s mercy (ie, love God)

Quote:
… in most Christians I personally know, their great spiritual quest in life is not to reach out to the world, but instead their spiritual journey is an ever tightening inward spiral to finally find that elusive physiological relief that should be theirs as a forgiven and redeemed child of God.

And what happens when the spring finally snaps or implodes? We unravel! That is not altogether bad, for at that point we hopefully are finally ready to trust God to do the work of atonement.

Quote:
the burdens of sin I have laid down at the cross when I was a young man have been replaced with even heavier religious ones.

This is a raw honesty and the path to freedom. Bless you!

Quote:
I can not blame the "church" for my plight...I know my own prideful desire to improve upon the simplicity of the gospel all too well. So heavy are some of my secret burdens that the slightest offence crumbles me to the ground.

Thankfully. It is a gift of God’s mercy when our faltering ways bring us down.

Quote:
And yet I do not know how to lay these things down without further offending those who expect me to carry them. Everytime someone suggests a new concern or sin in the church I groan under the weight of one more way I fail our Father.


I believe that it is our lingering guilt that predisposes us to absorb this stuff. The freer we are (through Christ) from our own guilt, the less inclined we will be to carry other’s unacknowledged guilt. Then we can free them up to go to the cross with their own guilt burdens. I speak to myself here. For years I unconsciously absorbed the guilt and shame of others, and they got off scott free - with not a twinge of guilt for their shameful ways of behaving. That made them feel good and me feel lousy. However, as long as I was willing to be the scapegoat, they didn’t have to experience the discomfort of facing their own stuff, and I didn't have to risk rejection. They liked me. It's a payoff.

God has often had to chastise me with: You are not responsible for THEIR sins, just your own. You are not their savior. Sadly, the church can be the worst place on earth for laying guilt trips on each other. I don’t think we are called to a lot of the stuff that we latch on to. Jesus said, “Come to me and I will give you rest for my burden is light!!”

Quote:
I'm a turtle flipped on it's back, unable to move forward into rest, or backwards to innocence. And even in this desperate state, people are stumbling over me, and being offended. It is enough to make me want to withdraw into my shell.

What a pitiful lot we are! And all the while Christ has freed us from this pathological enmeshment with others – freed us to love them, not be blown over by them or caught in their trap.

Quote:
Well, this thread has caught me in a rare moment of honesty. Everyone can trust that by tomorrow morning I'll be better rested and ready to resume my self-assured semblance so as not to attract new burdens from others.

Or so one would like to think… Thankfully, God breaks in on our journey and throws some hedges in our path. How else can we get off the beaten track we’ve made for ourselves and turn back into the loving arms of our Father.

Quote:
It's not a perfect system, but it is the best one we have until that glorious day when Christ comes back and perfects love among all His people from every tribe, tongue and nation!


When I first read this, I wanted to object. Surely God has given us something better in this life – right now. And indeed he has! Yet, I cannot dispute your claim. For, the struggle to be free and enjoy God’s rest is never fully experienced here. The struggle is ever on-going, and always somewhat elusive, always suffering with an inward groaning - longing for ultimate freedom. (Romans 8:23) I think that we have difficulty embracing that grievous reality because we still long for the Garden – as you say, go backwards to Innocence. The Old Testament prophesies never pointed us backwards, but forward to eternity through all its picture language. However humanity still looks for Utopia and would like to see the ultimate prophetic fulfilment while confined in this temporal existence. One never finds rest having that perspective. Rest is best realize when we look towards the Promised Land: Heaven. “Set your eyes on things above” Col.

Quote:
All of our clanging cavalcades of celebration at church will give way to a real adoration. What will unity in the presence of our Savior be like? Will it be the thunder of countless saints in white singing vast and beautiful waves of shifting harmonies as they rush forwards like a great ocean towards the throne? Or will there be the first true silence of awe in the universe, as a stunned Church finally sees the face of the Lamb most worthy...her mouth agape but breathless of speech.

What creative expression!

Quote:
In any case I do not doubt that for this present age, Christ's love is resident in each and every one of us Christians. Such abundant love should make us more then able to connect with one another.

“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness.” 2 Pet. 1:3 – and so we can do what we want – for our will is transformed. We have the mind of Christ! What glorious freedom!

Quote:
.where is the disconnect?


Might I be so bold as to suggest that the fracture point is our own reluctance to Love God?


_________________
Diane

 2006/4/29 9:15Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Diane,

Speaking of connection...your comments showed a wonderful and respectful understanding of where I was coming from...I often make an effort to leave familiar terminology behind in an effort to be more real about things. Sometimes that gets me into trouble with those looking to check off the right buzzwords in each other’s speech patterns.

Thank you much for a really excellent return. I don't think we could've had a better exchange if we were face to face discussing these things over a cup of coffee...

Quote:
I don’t think we are called to a lot of the stuff that we latch on to. Jesus said, “Come to me and I will give you rest for my burden is light!!”



So very very true. Oswald Chambers once offered a warning to be careful not to pick up burdens Jesus simply never intended us to carry. In contrast a friend of mine once observed how more burdens make us feel like we maturing in the Lord...how ironic it is really the opposite. One of the Lord's 'gifts' to us is His permission, his command, to live in simplicity.

Quote:
What creative expression!



Thank you for being gracious with my fanciful attempts at imagining the unimaginable!

Quote:
To love God is to become that turtle without ANY shell...Might I be so bold as to suggest that the fracture point is our own reluctance to Love God?



You might indeed! Obviously I don’t think the mission for us is to uncover one another's nakedness under the pretense of some cynical "spiritual" gift...nor is it for us to want to be the first to get naked! After all it was God himself that covered Adam’s nakedness. We are still living in a fallen world, despite my poetic yearning for the next age,...

I feel that perhaps the best posture is to allow each other to rest in the Lord...His eyes see who we are and if we come to Him earnestly shouldn't that be enough for even the most angry prophets? My wife, who is merely human has seen me at my worst, somehow continues to see the best in me. She reminds me of this scene from the movie "To End all Wars" In the movie, about a WWII Japanese prison camp, British POW's were allowed to form an ad hoc 'orchestra" for Christmas. As they began playing a squeaky squawky rendition of Beethoven's 9th, the main character offered these thoughts. "The music we played that night was not very good. In fact, it was bloody awful. But we didn't care. Because in our hearts we heard it as it could be. It was the sound of freedom."

I'm no expert on all the spiritual things I talk about. When I try to walk in Jesus' words I sound squawky and disharmious myself. And you know what...so do most of my brothers and sisters. Indeed, when we clumsily try to play the Lord's 'music' together some of us may get disgusted and decide it's time to become a soloist.

But maybe the true love of God has something to do with hearing each other with His heart. We are learning to hear the music as it can and will be and it is the sound of freedom in Christ.

Your squawky brother,

Mike


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Mike Compton

 2006/4/29 13:43Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

I was reading Oswald Chambers' My Utmost for His Highest last night before bed and I thought about this thread. I think it fits in well here so I thought I would post it...

[b]What You Will Get[/b]

I will give your life to you as a prize in all places, wherever you go —Jeremiah 45:5

This is the firm and immovable secret of the Lord to those who trust Him— "I will give your life to you . . . ." What more does a man want than his life? It is the essential thing. ". . . your life . . . as a prize . . ." means that wherever you may go, even if it is into hell, you will come out with your life and nothing can harm it. So many of us are caught up in exhibiting things for others to see, not showing off property and possessions, but our blessings. All these things that we so proudly show have to go. But there is something greater that can never go— the life that "is hidden with Christ in God" ( Colossians 3:3 ).

Are you prepared to let God take you into total oneness with Himself, paying no more attention to what you call the great things of life? Are you prepared to surrender totally and let go? The true test of abandonment or surrender is in refusing to say, "Well, what about this?" Beware of your own ideas and speculations. The moment you allow yourself to think, "What about this?" you show that you have not surrendered and that you do not really trust God. But once you do surrender, you will no longer think about what God is going to do. Abandonment means to refuse yourself the luxury of asking any questions. If you totally abandon yourself to God, He immediately says to you, "I will give your life to you as a prize . . . ." The reason people are tired of life is that God has not given them anything— they have not been given their life "as a prize." The way to get out of that condition is to abandon yourself to God. And once you do get to the point of total surrender to Him, you will be the most surprised and delighted person on earth. God will have you absolutely, without any limitations, and He will have given you your life. If you are not there, it is either because of disobedience in your life or your refusal to be simple enough.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2006/4/29 14:40Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
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 Re:

edit:I pulled my question here...thought I might wait before asking it.

MC

BTW, thanks Ron for the post. Oswald Chambers always seems on time.


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/4/30 14:07Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Compton wrote:

Quote:
your comments showed a wonderful and respectful understanding of where I was coming from



To have opportunities to express our deeper thoughts is a rare gift. To be heard and understood is an even rarer gift. Occasionally the clouds part and we see each other clearly, and then they cover over again – and its back to the relentless drone of shoptalk cluttered with the petty issues of life.

A great deal of conversation reminds me of toddlers at play, side by side in a playpen: There is a lot of parallel monologue.

Quote:
Are you prepared to let God take you into total oneness with Himself, paying no more attention to what you call the great things of life?


I see these words by O. Chambers as refreshing permission to disengage from the “heavy load” of accumulated burdens. As Compton pointed out:
Quote:
I feel that perhaps the best posture is to allow each other to rest in the Lord..

Again – a reference to PERMISSION. What a gift of love! – to loosen the strings, and grant each other the freedom to discover the place of rest for themselves – even to discover who they really are, in contrast to who everyone wants them to be or thinks they are. No one finds rest while their minds are entangled in all that stuff.

God’s rest is found in his outstretched loving arms. Oh, that we may turn fully to him, love him, and fully trust him. Only then are we free to do what we want - that is, we are free to be who we really are – and were meant to be, regardless of what anyone else says.

Quote:
sometimes that gets me into trouble with those looking to check off the right buzzwords in each other’s speech patterns.

Yes, it doesn’t take long to discover when we broke the “rules”. This is the risk of being ourselves. We end up breaking a lot of rules.

I find myself easily side-tracked by the “great things in life” that O. Chambers refers to. And thus my relationship with God becomes somewhat side-by-side - as if he is beside me speaking to me and I don’t really pay full attention. I am too preoccupied with extraneous thoughts.

The more we can let go of these “great things in life” which clutter up valuable headspace, the more we are free to hear others – even their unspoken words.


Quote:
… when we clumsily try to play the Lord's 'music' together some of us may get disgusted and decide it's time to become a soloist.

Oh, yea, and then you can “do your own thing” … add to that soundtracks, and we are fully alone – yet hardly free, because we have to follow the unbending predetermined rhythms and tempos.

Another point about corporate music-making: even when it sounds bad, it has value in that it requires a death of ego like nothing I know. Compton, I’m grateful for your little allegory. I must try very hard to apply it literally in a musical “adventure” I am in this week (in a public school).

I’m beginning to see that this thread topic has just barely been touched. There is much more to cover. What about this:

“In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.” Prov. 16:9
Diane

PS Compton: You now have me very curious about this question. You are just going to have to present it.


--oh right... no pressure....


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Diane

 2006/5/1 10:36Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
You now have me very curious about this question. You are just going to have to present it.



Thanks Diane. After reading your last gracious post I'm glad I waited.

Here is my question.(Actually it's more like a questionaire ;-) )

We've explored a thesis. Love God ...and do what you want.

I wanted to look at what might be considered a helpful antithesis: Obey God. I'll risk admitting I have difficultly with this as a Christian mission statement…perhaps as much as some have with the face value of the statement “Love God, and do what you want”

Consider the incredible lengths men are willing to go to obey their god from the recent movie "United 93”. The film begins with an Al Quaida Muslim praying devoutly in his hotel room somewhere in Newark New Jersey the morning of 9/11. The movie ends with this same fellow praying fervently... right before he intentionally crash-lands a plane full of people, killing everyone on board.

How is the love of God, and obeying God connected to knowing God? Jesus said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” Does true love for God require revelation from His Spirit or is it simply born of man's human will towards God?

To avoid the appearance of this being another ‘rhetorical” question, let me offer that I believe biblical obedience to God begins with resting from work…not with trying harder. I believe this rest comes from the peace that only the sufficiency of Christ can afford to the believer. Yet many of us, even in this forum, admire the zealous Muslim spiritual ethic. Why is that?

My question is not so much about “Islam”. For me the movie “United 93” was just an extreme example of how natural man has an enormous capacity for religious devotion. Even if it means killing themselves and others to obtain peace for their souls, humanity has it’s own strength to be very devout and pious. When we say we admire the Muslims, or the communists or any other belief group for their zeal and fanaticism…what are we saying about the central message of the Gospel?

How does knowing God affect a Christian’s love for God? All people want peace for their souls. Some try through sensual pleasures and others through religion. Yet both these pursuits lead to quarrels and hatred… even among us in the church. From whence come wars and fightings among us?

And from whence comes love among us?

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/5/1 14:27Profile
SeanHobson
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Joined: 2005/12/9
Posts: 150
Cleveland, OH

 Re:

I would seek to fellowship with my fellow brothers, but this thread seemeth too hott for me. Alas! because of such I shall opt for the quoting of what may rebuttle all arguments:

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Pro 11:23 The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath.

Psa 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Since the letter killeth, and I hold no measure of intellegence enough to rehearse all the points made and conclude a conclusion..Let me point the verses above and take my leave. ;-)


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Sean Hobson

 2006/5/1 22:02Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Sometimes I like to invite outsiders to read our discussion. Here is a response, that I feel is worth our attention – actually from the person I quoted earlier:

I would like to point out that Crowley doesn't mention loving God in his law. The thing is, without the bit about loving God, the rest of the quote is worse than meaningless. "Do what you want" by itself is not a wise way to live. Aleister Crowley did not know the love of God. He wanted to have power over everyone else, to rule them with fear and gobbledygook. And from what I've heard, he's had his reward on earth. His followers also get their rewards - usually they end up severely broken and unhappy, quite often insane, and surrounded by other unhappy insane people who can't honestly be called friends.

The quote goes, "Love God, THEN do what you want." If random people in a nightclub really understood the meaning of this, they couldn't just start doing what they wanted; they'd have to do some research before they started... I don't know what club people are expected to want, to beat people up and steal their cocaine and shoes? Hmmph. How can you really love God if you don't even know Him? Maybe you won't fully comprehend the greatness of God. That's fine, nobody ever will while they are limited by the flesh. But you have to have at least the general gist of Him before you can say you love Him! And then there's the question of what you really want... If you're paying any attention at all, you'll soon learn to distinguish between a fleeting fancy and a heart's desire - it's one thing getting what you want, but there are always consequences, good or bad. If you have an ongoing dialogue with God, you'll have a much better chance of knowing which desires are which.

All in all, a good discussion. Thanks for letting me in on it! I'm wondering, is that kind of "conversation" common ...?


_________________
Diane

 2006/5/2 18:30Profile





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