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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: a risky quote

Aaron said:

Quote:
there are many who believe that they "Love God" who when push comes to shove "hate Him" in reality.


How do we know where we stand until we discover our "want-to" - what we would really do if we were free to do what we wanted.


What would happen if at the front of our church sanctuaries we put a big sign:

"Love God and then do what you want" and then tell everyone to go and do it.

The results would reveal the true hearts, wouldn't it - hot or cold.

Should we take the risk?

Would it be worth it?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/4/27 10:53Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Trusting God's love...

Brothers and sisters, I am really enjoying this conversation!

Diane,

You are so right about the loving context that has encouraged my daughters "fee-will" towards her mom and I. You were also keen to observe that the book title I mentioned suffers more from my subjective projection upon it rather than any objective flaw.

That got me thinking about your next line of questions...

Quote:
We are FREE to respond to him in love, or try to earn divine favor (legal-centered thinking) Why does almost everyone choose the later?

Why does the freedom to do whatever you want seem so scary?

Why is there such a fear of authentic creativity among God’s people? People just copy the religious trends. Really they want to do what everybody else is doing.... even while praying for God's will. Is this because God refuses to turn anyone into automatons?


I suppose there would be several ways to answer this. Today, as I was having lunch with my wife talking about these very things I came to a realization how much my "theology" is really a critique of past experiences...a critique of people.

We focus on subject matters like sin, heresy, doctrine, the flesh, abuse, wolves, and ad nausea because these things seem so much more real to us then the love of God. Over time, in light of our own failures or disappointments with each other we adopt such a low estimation of God's people that it affects our theology.

We become afraid of grace.

Once mistrustful of grace, our own humanity seems unrestorable and unclean despite the celebrated cathedral arches of imputed righteousness theology. The fact of the matter is that many of us of us don’t believe anything has been given to us. Legal forgiveness is a stretch at best, but God loving us, (or liking us) is beyond the visible spectrum of our theological eyesight. Thus there seems to be no purpose in a Christian artist writing a symphony because such things seem to celebrate humanity and our theology is rooted in a vicious critique and rejection of humanity. Unless someone could write a symphony that reminds men of their sin and failure we will see no spiritual value to it.

How sad this must make our Father. I think of my own children...when my older son improves on his Clarinet I find deep satisfaction. When my youngest son comes running to me holding a little beetle he just discovered under a rock, there is a little spontaneous joy that takes over the moment. And when my daughter unconsciously practices her helpful disposition and kindness to her friends I feel like the richest father on Earth.

Now my love for my children is a faint spark compared to the warm light that shines down on us from God's face...and yet I couldn't imagine how sad I would feel as an earthly father if my children found no pleasure in their personalities or gifts and abilities. If their hearts were always preoccupied with their own ugliness I would conclude that my part in bringing them into this world was meaningless vanity and sorrow. If God's love for humanity is a vast exponential of any affection I feel for my own children...how much more much his grief be that we despise our humanity to such a degree that even in our restored condition we place little spiritual value on the gifts of creativity and intellect.

The New Man in centuries past was capable of great creative and intellectual achievements but such a notion seems heretical to us today. Isaac Watts, Isaac Newton, JS Bach, Handel, Sir Frances Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Robert Boyle, Louis Pasteur and many more were all Christians whose service to God was their diligence and integrity to the gifts and opportunities entrusted to them. Surely such Christians are living today, but sadly our evangelical spheres seem to place little value on their “secular” achievements. I believe this is because our anemic view of God's love for human beings has reduced the Church or the New Man, to the agency of homo religioso...the religious man.

Here is the difference between the two…at least as I see it. The New Man smiles when hungry people are being fed or are being cured of desease even if by a secular agency, while the religious man can’t stand the hungry being fed unless it’s under the banner of the church. The New Man marvels at the God given creativity of even an unredeemed man’s ability to write a string quartet, but the religious man disdains any art or science that lacks utilitarian value for his religion. The New Man identifies with suffering humanity, while the religious man feels suspicious and elevated towards the sinful masses.

In short religious cups never are running over…when it comes to God’s love we act as stingy as we think God is being towards us. (I’m speaking in generalities for the sake of time…please add a sense of proportion to my blanket statements!)

Quote:
We need to learn to let God love us. That takes trust.



For me this trust towards God you mention is not real until it is extended to our fellow humanity… This may sound unspiritual or even “humanistic” (hide the women and children!) but I rather think it is intercessory spirituality. Afterall... the love, the mercy, the righteousness we have been given in Christ is not a gathering pool or lake…it is a river. As a river it must flow outward! If we cannot release its flow outwardly then why should we expect to experience its flow inwardly? (Any hydraulic engineers in the forum?) And so not all the love of God that flows through us must be channeled into narrow religous pipes...not all a man or woman does for God must have religious value, though few of us dare to accept such a fully restored human without some measure of suspicion.

Like you said Diane, we must risk being rejected and misunderstood...often by homo religioso! That is part of our precious fellowship with Jesus.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/4/27 16:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Aaron said:
Quote:
there are many who believe that they "Love God" who when push comes to shove "hate Him" in reality.


How do we know where we stand until we discover our "want-to" - what we would really do if we were free to do what we wanted.


What would happen if at the front of our church sanctuaries we put a big sign:

"Love God and then do what you want" and then tell everyone to go and do it.

The results would reveal the true hearts, wouldn't it - hot or cold.

Should we take the risk?

Would it be worth it?

Diane



Diane, I mean you no harm in this post and feel I should say that first as paranoia is running high from my end and others at present... but the title and theme of this thread has caught my eye from the moment you posted it, being the crazy person who is always "checking into everything for all these years ... blah, blah"

As soon as I saw the title, only one "Quote" rang through in my head and then a second Quote.

I'll give the latter first .... "Hath God said ?"
Spoken in the Garden, I'm sure all know that one.

But the very first Quote that blared at me as soon as the title came up was this quote....

"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law." and with this same exact quote many times and from the same person, will be quoted "Love is the law, love under will."

I won't beat around the bush with the "who said this ?" Or is this a Christian quote stuff, but it is from -- Aleister Crowley, The Book of the Law, 1909


If you copy and paste " Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law. " into Google, you'll understand why this Quote does bother me and also because it is not what we'd find in the Bible. But the reason this quote had come to mind first, is because that quote is more well known as just "do what you want" now. {someone's saying black eyed peas right now too}.
No more "thou wilts" for the younger crowd ... Ha ... maybe they don't like King James English neither.

Again, I may be sounding like the bad guy or maybe anathema to some or disbanded from the "group" for saying "Sola Scriptura" ... but I fear "Hath God Said ?" in both contexts of how that can be asked more than any other threats.

'Avoid even the appearance of evil' and with today's culture delving into Crowley at unprecedented numbers ... they'd recognize that saying faster than any Christian and relate it to his teachings faster than to yours.

As I kept seeing the title pop up on the Homepage, I prayed over this thread from the day it was posted and wanted to post what I just have ... but just having come from another, where I came out just a bit fatigued, did not have the strength.

I believe you recall from past discussions that I am neither a legalist nor an adherent of antinomianism. I've been accused of both though - Ha. I can quote without an ounce of "Legalism" attached to it - Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We're are always "safe" when quoting His Words, but leave ourselves, our meanings and the imaginations of others, wide open if we try to re-word things for Him.

I will leave it at that and hope you may be able to see through all I've fumbled through here, that again I mean no harm to you, nor any other poster to this thread, but just some insight that this quote I gave above is quite popular now-a-days and increasingly so, especially in our high-schools, just for starts.

To quote from Compton as to my feelings toward what I've posted here and elsewhere .... "Like you said Diane, we must risk being rejected and misunderstood...often by homo religioso! That is part of our precious fellowship with Jesus."


Thank you in advance for your forbearance.

Annie

 2006/4/28 5:10
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Annie, Thanks for your comments. Indeed, it is risky to give people the free use of their “want to”. Is that not the risk God took with the human race?

I share a bit from an O’Neill sermon that I heard yesterday.

In his home country, Ireland, ruby is the national sport. At the universities all kinds of eager students show up to join the team at the beginning of the school year – fat ones, skinny ones, weak ones, and strong ones. Everyone wants to play. Then by the second practice some are turned off by the weather, and decide to join the chess club instead. At the next practice more leave because they don’t like the 6 am strenuous work out. And on it goes until finally only those who really WANT to play, and are WILLING to endure remain on the team. And they form a winning team.

God says to humanity: “Anyone who wants to be on my team, come along. You just have to love me with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.” And then God gives a lot of space for man to do what he wants. Lots of people show up to be on his team. But as time goes on various hardships reveal that they really don’t WANT this. Loving God is not their principle desire.

Are your objections to the quote based on a weak understanding of God’s requirement to love him - loving God is simply not enough to transform a person’s “want to” and liberate it from fleshly desire? I ask, Would anyone who truly loves God also prefer live according to the flesh? I think scripture teaches that this is impossible. It is hypocritical.

In our zealous efforts to evangelize and build the church I suspect that we trying to make a huge safety net to include and keep as many as possible? We replace loving God with a behavior code. You can bring in and keep a lot more people that way.

If we mounted this: “Love God and then do what you want” we might see a mass exodus from the church - all those who are glad to see the second half. I wonder how many observe religious commitments because they feel obligated rather than because it is what they REALLY WANT to do.

Which would you rather have? - and God?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/4/28 7:58Profile









 Re:

Hia Diane, I fully understood "your" meaning and stated so in my first post and knew you also meant no harm, it was just the title.

but as far as your question, if I object to God's requirement to Love Him, I think I answered this well enough on here and got in enough trouble for all that I posted on the first two pages. Unless you hadn't read those posts, They are saying about the exact same things you just questioned me on.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10449&forum=35&9


Still I'm glad my post brought out more clearly "your" meaning, so that if a teen falls on to this thread, it is a lot more evident now, what your meaning is by this title.

Thank you.

Annie

 2006/4/28 8:08
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: free use of our will

Annie, I empathize with your concern. The church has been placing emphasis on pleasing fleshly desires in order to keep adherents by providing pleasing forms of worship – music, padded pews, air-conditioning, etc, and it has placed little emphasis on the implications of loving God. So we shouldn't be surprised if worshippers filter this statement, “Love God and then do what you want” through the grid of their me-centric reality. That’s all they know.

I think that many people really DON'T want to have the free use of their will. It is scary. It's too much responsibility. What if they choose wrong? Will God abandon them? Most would rather let another have control of their will - ex the church, society, their heritage, etc.

Even a teen does not always do what he really wants, even though he thinks he does. He actually often follows the expectations of his peers. One day I met a youth who was about to get a body piercing. I asked him why he was doing that. He hesitated, then said, "My friend wants me to." I again asked, "Is this what YOU want to do?" I was trying to help him take ownership of his own choices.

Each person must first take hold of his own will, before he can even begin to choose God. I think that the church should allow their adherents the use and excercise of their free will - and then nurture it to maturity - rather than suppress it into a weak, dormant, impotent state.

Perhaps this is a risk, but then it also allows the freedom to love God in whatever way one is bent - whether it be showing care, resisting false prophets, or creating, or even starting a mission work. (you can't do a lot of that these days unless you go through all the "proper" hoops.) - and, oh, I almost forgot - even pour out an entire bottle of expensive perfume on the head of our Lord. (figuratively)

Diane


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Diane

 2006/4/28 8:56Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: fear of grace

Compton said,

Quote:
We become afraid of grace.


Compton, this statement, along with other comments are portrayed in a testimony by one of my 3-D friends, sent to me after I emailed her the quote. She has given me permission to add her thoughts here. I sense that this person is really searching to know God's love, and separate out faulty thinking.

I bet that takes a lot of explaining for some people! When you're brought up to believe that you can only be a good person if you feel guilty about something, it's tricky to understand that - assuming a reasonable amount of thoughtfulness - you won't go out and do awful things just because you've quit feeling like an awful person. I bet you could get kicked out of some churches for preaching that. But it's important! God made us and this planet so we can enjoy what He gave us. I know the bible says explicitly in Ecclesiastes, and I can't remember where else: our purpose is to enjoy life and praise God. He wants us to feel good!

Of course, that doesn't mean you pass by a person lying in the gutter because it might be a downer, it means you want to help the person in the gutter because it feels so good to help someone else feel good. And it really helps you feel true compassion when you aren't so busy feeling guilty.

I don't remember a lot of my "church education," mostly just the stuff that made sense - I have trouble following words if they don't match what's in the heart. One of the mostly-unspoken messages was that it is a sin to enjoy yourself. They *said* that you could only be "saved" through God's grace, but they *showed* that you have to be busy all the time, working and struggling, so maybe you'd eventually deserve God's grace. Even with all the things I've learned since then, it still feels like a sin to stop and enjoy the sun on my face. Fortunately, God is patient with me, and I'm slowly getting the picture.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/4/28 12:21Profile
Josiah777
Member



Joined: 2004/2/17
Posts: 99
Sterling, VA

 Re:

Quote:
They *said* that you could only be "saved" through God's grace, but they *showed* that you have to be busy all the time, working and struggling, so maybe you'd eventually deserve God's grace.



A book I found very helpful to diffuse that kind of thinking was Jerry Bridges' [i]Transforming Grace[/i]. He showed how Christians start off being saved by grace but then trust in performance (not grace) for daily living. It's very subtle. I can relate to the quote above, and it's really awesome to walk in the grace of the Lord Jesus, not an endless list of do's and don'ts to somehow try to keep me holy.


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Ken Marino

 2006/4/28 12:41Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
We're are always "safe" when quoting His Words, but leave ourselves, our meanings and the imaginations of others, wide open if we try to re-word things for Him....Thank you in advance for your forbearance.


Annie,

Thanks. I appreciated the dept and sincerity behind your thoughts. I would agree with you that the title of this thread could make for a poor or even disastrous evangelistic track to a group of lost people waiting in line outside a nightclub.

With that context in mind, this thread, at least for me, has been simply a dialogue...in fact most of these threads are. I never imagine that SI is a teachers forum nor do I imagine these threads to be a collection of formal teachings. If that were the case I would never post anything at all.

Instead I have always hoped our discussions to be conversation between well meaning but growing brothers and sisters. As such it is permissible to, as you say, "fumble" through a topic in safety and forebearance.

Diane, you asked why Christians “parrot” each other both in thought and deed...well perhaps it's because our human natures tend to organize church communites around sameness like various flocks of birds. Crows don’t like to get wet like the ducks do, Herons look down killdeers, and hawks might just eat baby sparrows. In short we are quick to misunderstand one another so we align ourselves with those people who are least likely to do so and once there we try to confrom further.

Now let me readily state, I am not talking as a victim here…but as the villain. I am so quick to judge other people! Why is that? Have I not received an abundance of mercy and understanding myself? These errors in others that I perceive are not always do to a lack of lofty scriptural correctness...often they are simply contextual misunderstandings. The other day a friend made a comment about the singer Andrea Bocelli…this person thought Bocelli was arrogant because he never seemed to look a television reporter in the eye when talking to them. What they did not know is that Mr. Bocelli is physically blind…but perhaps passing hasty jusgements on one another is a form of self-blindness. This self-blindness is so much a part of human nature we hardly notice it anymore. The single Christian judges the married with kids Christians for needing a bigger house. The married Christian judges the single mother for having fears and worries married people have forgotten about. The republican Christian judges his brother who votes democratic. The poor Christian judges the well-off business owner who gives to missions in secret...

All of these examples relate to this discussion about "loving God." We affirm "sola scriptura" and even use scripture to question the veracity of one another’s love for God...but in the end have we missed the forest through the various trees of our creeds and confessions if we constantly mistrust each other? Do I really love God and his Word when I missunderstand people...or am I simply being partial to my own small existence?

My own conclusion is that this mistrust of each other is why we secretly cling to the law, even in our relationship with Christ. (I appreciated Josiah's comment on this tendency.) Without trying to play a melodramatic note here, I think clinging to the law is an affront to God who has asked us to cling to His Son. Why is that? Because if we were honest with ourselves we would admit we don’t cling to the whole law…just various fragments of it. And then we are likely to become hypocrites if we assume others are poor Christians simply because they don't cling to the fragment of the law that we cling to. This is why I believe so firmly that truly loving God and His Word will lead us to the task of clinging to one another in Christ and not our isolated and individual fragmented truths. (I understand how even this can be distorted to say something I never inteded it to say...but I trust well meaning people will take my meaning well. ;-))

I find James wonderfully frustrating to those religious schemes I keep plotting for my brothers and sisters. His epistle is an uncompromising exhortation for me to obey the whole law while at the same time giving freedom and mercy to others. James obviously didn’t have to deal with the Christians I know…surely he’s not suggesting that I trust my brothers and sisters with freedom and mercy! If I loved them I would not spare my righteous judgements upon their hearts! (I call that one the “love loophole.”)

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it...Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful."

And then James says a statement that could be just as misapplied and misunderstood as the title of this thread.

"Mercy triumphs over judgment!"

I am so glad it has. Praise God.

Blessings all!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/4/28 12:53Profile









 Re:

I made it clear in my posts to Diane that it was only the title that could mis-lead Comptom. I 'think' she saw that.


I'll just sit back and watch how threads like this one and others go on, about "others".
I also see parroting, that I call plagiarism posts.
You post something one day, and hours later there's another thread with what was just posted by the other, just in "different words".

I said we should be "others minded only" but I didn't mean this way. Sit back and read your own posts and see how many times you are discussing "others". Most of the "polite" posters do this, but only see it in the more outspoken ones.

Just because we sit back and discuss "others" in a way that's politely done and with an occasional, "oh, but I do mean me too here" .... that's alright.

(Edited: easier to remove linked posts, they're on my profile anywho. ;-) )


These posts can give more flavor, meat and content to discussing and analyzing "ad nauseum" (another stolen quote from MikeC) why I for one, do what I do and then have a another fruit contest and show how big your fruits are by condescending (or not MikeB) to a trouble making maniac like that GrannieAnnie was, when she was here ....

Three brothers who are scientists and renowned in this country and their sister speaks like a "country cornball".
Well, my Missionary training was for the streets of America, so in my learned foreign tongue ...

Hasta la vista baby. :-D

 2006/4/28 19:07





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