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 blessed are the peacemakers


Given Jesus' pacifism, what Scriptural justification is there for war? (Such as the current war in Iraq.)

Jake

 2003/12/30 11:09









 Re: blessed are the peacemakers


No replies? I guess there is no Scriptural support for war fighting.

 2004/1/2 9:23
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: blessed are the peacemakers

Hi Jake,

I don't know that Jesus' "pacifism" and justification for war are to be equated together.

I don't find any scriptual support for [i]not[/i] opposing evil. Nor do I find Jesus instructing military personal that He came into contact with to stop doing so.

The question seems to be a misnomer.

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS
AND LORD OF LORDS."

The Revelation of Jesus Christ 19:11-16


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/1/2 10:52Profile









 Re:


Crosscheck,

Thanks for your reply.

The command to "love your enemy" seems clear enough to me. There is a lot about Revelations that I don't trust, because, as in the passage you quote, there seems to be a number of contraditions with the Life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels. These Gospels are my proving grounds for the rest of Scriptures. If they support the Gosples, I have no problem with them. If there is contradition, then I resort to the Gospels and teachings of our Lord. No one but Jesus can speak for Him. The signature I use Zech. 4:6 seems to contradict Revelations as well as the more widely know Isaiah prophesy on beating sword into plowshares and learning war no more.

Jake

 2004/1/2 11:32
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

This is only my humble opinion and I am no scholar on war or doctrines. :)

Jas 4:1 -
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Jas 4:2 -
Ye lust, and have not: ye KILL, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and WAR, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

"See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men." I Thessalonians 5:15

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Many people quote this verse to defend their position on war and fighting: Mt 10:34 -
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Yet everyone knows that this is supposed to mean a spiritual sword.

Again, I feel that Jesus is the ultimate example. We cannot compare to the Old Testament because Jesus had not come yet to set the ultimate example- but now we know how He expects us to behave and treat others: put others before ourselves, if someone strikes you- turn the other cheek and let him strike the other, the list goes on...

The Jews believed that when the Messiah came, He would come to make war and conquer Rome. But His business was to conquer sin. It is on another realm, another Kingdom. Which is where our allegiance should be- to that of another kingdom.

"They thought Jesus would free them from the tyranny of Rome. But Jesus did not come to conquer Rome. He came to conquer sin and death. He did not come to make war with Rome. He came to make peace with God and man. These people misunderstood His mission." G. Laurie

We now have another way to approach problems, arguments, tyranny, etc... The Lord is perfectly capable of doing what needs to be done- especially if we pray and behave the way He asked us to in the New Testament.

All of the things that Jesus spoke in the Sermon on the mount, and all of the other things that He and Paul taught can not be null and void when it comes to war.

What many don't realize is that refusing to war requires "surrender" of rights, of self, of things carnal people hold dear. I think that , again, Jesus showed us what to do here. Paul showed us what to do here.

People don't like to feel "weak", they don't like to give up their rights- their right to be right.

We have a big enough job warring against our "selves" (flesh) and the enemy. Must we feel obligated to war against "flesh and blood" too? The Bible clearly states that that is not where our war is.

Just some thoughts. :)


_________________
Chanin

 2004/1/2 12:04Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

First off, something I have been meaning to relate to you Jake.

I am glad that you are amongst us.
We need a 'Tim Wakefield/Phil Niekro' to throw us some knuckleballs ("I have faced many knuckleball pitchers in my twenty year career and I can tell
you that even a large tree trunk can't hit the knuckleball." Jack Mankin)

Not that they never make contact.

Quote:
There is a lot about Revelations that I don't trust, because, as in the passage you quote, there seems to be a number of contraditions with the Life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels. These Gospels are my proving grounds for the rest of Scriptures.



Do you agree with these statement's:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteouss, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Tim 3:16,17

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

2 Peter 1:20,21

I have heard it put as "apparent contradictions".
Scripture interpret's scripture.

I know this has been touched on before, but if there is anything out of whack in God's revelation to us in scripture, how could we trust any of it?

Are we not dealing with principle's and heart issue's?

Going by the gospels and teachings of our Lord as you stated, is this "love your enemy's" to thereby include "the devil, your adversary"?

Would Jesus have us to be doormat's and allow a Hitler to go unchecked?

Is the context of Matt 5:38-48 to be taken as a statement of fact that applies to whether or not war is justified?

What is it that God hates?
Is it not sin?
Which is the root cause of all of the downfall of man and untill it is eradicated from the planet we will never beat our swords into plowshares.

Just swinging at pitches.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/1/2 13:17Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Hey Mike

just wanted to let you know that I don't mean to argue. Just friendly discussion here. :)

About Hitler- this is one that makes you ponder. Though i wonder if still , we aren't to let God be judge.

I actually do believe we are to be doormats- lay down our lives for another if need be. I don't live for my country, my honor, my country's honor, I only live for Jesus and His kingdom- which is coming. The wars that are fought on this earth are of the flesh and not of His kingdom.

I really can't see Jesus being here on earth when He was and helping anyone go to war. That was not Him. He could have done that - to be an example - to show us how to "war" -but He didn't. He chose a better way. An invisible way- a spiritual way.

Also, someone once asked me the same thing about Sadam Hussein (as a Hitler type) "shouldn't we do something about this man? He is nuts- killing his own people, etc..." I thought about it and responded "what do you expect- look at their country and their "god". They do not serve God- what do expect to happen. It's all consequences. Is it our job to rescue a nation or people from, perhaps judgement, from not serving the true and living God? Hmmmm

I don't know. I really don't.

I just cannot actually see Jesus going to war (physically)killing people. I just don't see it.

Physical war -fighting is the way of man. His ways are not our ways.

Just more thoughts. :)


_________________
Chanin

 2004/1/2 13:33Profile
lyndon
Member



Joined: 2003/12/8
Posts: 65
Manitoba, Canada

 Re:

A question for Moreofhim
Do you have an anabaptist background?

Also a couple of points to ponder. If we break war down, from two ideology's or countries battling each other. We get individuals shooting at and killing other individuals, it's really easy to justify war if you keep looking at IT from 'the big picture'. But once you start looking at it from a 'one on one' perspective, I believe you will find it harder to justify.

Lyndon

 2004/1/2 13:53Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Hi Lyndon,

Quote:
Do you have an anabaptist background?


No, not that I'm aware of. :)

I actually grew up as a very conservative Republican/Baptist (my Dad). When I was younger, I was eager to agree with all of their views. Isn't that funny how "conservative republican = baptist (fundamentalist)or similar " these days.

As I've matured in the Lord the last couple of years. (Become broken, surrendered all, let Him break strongholds in my life, etc...)Everything has changed in the way I "see" things. I look past this world (for I am not of it anymore) I honestly got a "new" look at the scriptures. I started reading scripture and getting an interpretation from the Holy Spirit- as opposed to man's. I see that all I believed before was not based on the Holy Spirit but by man's teaching and traditions. It's like the veil was lifted.

The Lord Himself directs me, convicts me, opens my eyes to "see" and to "hear" what I never saw or heard before. I don't rely on much of man's teaching- although I still read alot and learn as the Spirit directs (if my discernment meter doesn't go off) :)

I really think that those who have been broken (over and over), humbled, and surrendered all to the Lord- on purpose - but knowing that it will hurt- I feel that they do not follow man's teaching and ways because they realize that if they were still following man's ways- they wouldn't be broken or brought to the place of surrendering all- even their rights. They wouldn't be experiencing this wonderful slavery to Christ.


_________________
Chanin

 2004/1/2 14:42Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re: blessed are the peacemakers

I can't say that I have this all figured out or that I am convinced either way. This is something I question also. I wanted to share some things that have come to mind about war.

In Luke 14:31 Jesus does show us that He is aware that war is real when He mentions a king going out to do battle. I realize this verse is not talking about war but rather being a disciple. But I think it is worth knowing that Jesus understood war was a reality.

Also the strongs defines peacemakers in the sermon on the mount as those who love peace. As followers of Christ we will love peace and hate war and death. To love peace doesn't seem to exclude the possiblilty of war and the results of it.

Also when Jesus said to love your enemy was He saying do not go to war with your enemy or could He have been saying in your wars with your enemies love them. As a Christian could we not be in a war and show love to our enemy. When we have prisoners we could treat them with love and respect and compassion. Our own country, uunlike most, even treats prisoners very well in most cases and most of those involved are most likely not Christians.

Has anyone seen the movie Sargent York. A true story of Alvin C York who was a drunk and got saved. He was drafted to WWI but had the inner struggled of going because of this same issue. He decided not to go against the draft and ended up fighting the Germans and killing a lot of the them single handed and taking many german prisoners because of his actions. When asked why he ended up killing those germans, he said he shot them because there were people dying all around him so he killed a dozen or so men to save maybe hundreds. I am not condoning killing to save others but just giving an example for thought.

The last thing that comes to mind is King David, a man after God's own heart. David was a mighty warrior, killed many people.

Gods ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Sincerely in Christ,

Mike


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Mike

 2004/1/2 14:57Profile





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